Merged Continuation - 9/11 CT subforum General Discussion Thread

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Clayton Moore said:
Actually I don't perceive those particular magazines as the spokesmagazines of choice for America's scientific community.
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However, experts were happy to be consulted and to contribute their views, and none of the experts consulted have complained at their views being misrepresented. We can conclude, therefore, that these articles accurately represent the views of recognised experts in the relevant fields, which rather suggests that you don't have a point there.

Dave
 
Childlike Empress said:
I never gave a flying **** about what some people want to know from or about me.
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I don't buy this as being genuine... It's a perfectly legitimate response if someone's asking you to divulge details of your personal life on a forum where people have no business knowing it. However the questions you just went over aren't concerned with that. Folks like you and redibis contend that your views are being distorted unfairly by your detractors, this screams the opposite of what you say here.
 
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Travis said:
What does this fictional Atlantic No Fly Zone have to do with 9/11?
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Nothing, of course. He's speaking nonsense. If he stopped and thought about what he's saying, he'd realize that he's not talking about 9/11 at all. Everyone else realizes that the 9/11 jets flew over Massachusettes, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Virginia, etc.

Since he's invoking the Atlantic, he's probably groping towards referring to the ADIZ. And since he thinks that's a no-fly zone, he's showing that he doesn't know what he's talking about. If any of the hijacked flights ever flew over the ocean, the ADIZ may have become somewhat relevant, but none of them did.

Clayton Moore said:
Actually I don't perceive those particular magazines as the spokesmagazines of choice for America's scientific community.
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[SIZE=-1]Bazant, Z.P., & Zhou, Y.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Addendum to 'Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? - Simple Analysis" (pdf)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 3, (2002): 369-370.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Brannigan, F.L.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Fire Engineering v.155, no. 4, (2002): 145-150.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Clifton, Charles G. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]HERA: Innovation in Metals. 2001. 13 December 2001.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Construction and Collapse Factors"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002): 106-108.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Corbett, G.P.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Fire Engineering v.155, no. 10, (2002.): 133-135.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Dissecting the Collapses"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72, no. 5, (2002): 36-46.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]JOM v. 53, no. 12, (2001): 8-12.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Federal Emergency Management Agency, Therese McAllister, report editor.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]World Trade Center Building Performance Study: Data Collection, Preliminary Observations, and Recommendations[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1](also available on-line)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1, (2003): 45-48.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]"Collapse Lessons"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Fire Engineering v. 155, no. 10, (2002): 97-103[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Marechaux, T.G.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]JOM, v. 54, no. 4, (2002): 13-17.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Monahan, B.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3, (2002): 134-135.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Newland, D.E., & Cebon, D.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Could the World Trade Center Have Been Modified to Prevent Its Collapse?"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128, no. 7, (2002):795-800.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]National Instititue of Stamdards and Technology: [/SIZE]Congressional and Legislative Affairs
[SIZE=-1]“Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Statement of Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr., before Committee of Science House of Representatives, United States Congress on March 6, 2002. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Pinsker, Lisa, M.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Applying Geology at the World Trade Center Site"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Geotimes v. 46, no. 11, (2001).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The print copy has 3-D images.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Public Broadcasting Station (PBS)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Why the Towers Fell: [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]A Companion Website to the Television Documentary.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]NOVA (Science Programming On Air and Online) [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Post, N.M.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"No Code Changes Recommended in World Trade Center Report"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]ENR[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] v. 248, no. 14, (2002): 14.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Post, N.M.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Study Absolves Twin Tower Trusses, Fireproofing"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]ENR[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] v. 249, no. 19, (2002): 12-14.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The University of Sydney, Department of Civil Engineering[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]A resource site.[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]"WTC Engineers Credit Design in Saving Thousands of Lives"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]ENR[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] v. 247, no. 16, (2001): 12.[/SIZE]

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

​
More (some will be repeats of the list above):
moorea34 said:
Articles:

Eagar, T.W., & Musso, C. Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse ? Science, Engineering, and Speculation JOM v. 53 N°12 2001
Clifton, Charles G., Elaboration on Aspects of the Postulated Collapse of the World Trade Centre Twin Towers, Innovation in Metals 2001

Pinsker, Lisa, M. Applying Geology at the World Trade Center Site Geotimes v. 46, no. 11 2001
Zdenek P. Bazant, Yong Zhou Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse ? - Simple Analysis Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128 N°1 2002

Anne Powell Dissecting the Collapses Civil Engineering ASCE v. 72 N°5 2002
Quintiere, J.G.; di Marzo, M.; Becker, R. A suggested cause of the fire-induced collapse of the World Trade Towers, Fire Safety Journal v. 37 Issue 7 2002

Newland, D. E.; Cebon, D. Could the world trade center have been modified to prevent its collapse ? Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 128 Issue 7 2002

Monahan, B. World Trade Center Collapse-Civil Engineering Considerations Practice Periodical on Structural Design and Construction v. 7, no. 3 2002

Brannigan, F.L. WTC: Lightweight Steel and High-Rise Buildings Fire Engineering v.155 no. 4 2002

Fema Construction and Collapse Factors Fire Engineering v.155 no. 10 2002

Corbett, G.P. Learning and Applying the Lessons of the WTC Disaster Fire Engineering v.155 no. 10 2002

Norman J. Glover Collapse Lessons Fire Engineering v. 155 no. 10 2002

Burgess, I.W. Fire Resistance of Framed Buildings Physics Education v. 37 (5) 2002

Marechaux, T.G. TMS Hot Topic Symposium Examines WTC Collapse and Building Engineering JOM v. 54, no. 4 2002

Wierzbicki, T.; Teng, X How the airplane wing cut through the exterior columns of the World Trade Center Journal of Impact Engineering v. 28 2003

Usmani, A. S.; Chung, Y. C.; Torero, J. L How did the WTC towers collapse ? A new theory Fire Safety Journal v. 38 2003

Gabrielson, T.B., Poese, M.E., & Atchley, A.A. Acoustic and Vibration Background Noise in the Collapsed Structure of the World Trade Center The Journal of Acoustical Society of America v. 113, no. 1 2003

Biederman, R.R., Sullivan, E.M., Sisson Jr., R.D., Vander Voort, Microstructural analysis of the steels from Buildings 7, & 1 or 2 from the World Trade Center Microscopy and Microanalysis v. 9 2003

Gayle, Frank W.; Banovic, Stephen W. Tim. Foecke The Structural Steel of the World Trade Center Towers Advanced Materials & Processes v. 162 no10 2004

Nadine M. WTC Findings Uphold Structural Design ENR v. 253 no17 2004

Marjanishvili, S.M. Progressive analysis procedure for progressive collapse Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 18 (2) 2004

Corley, W.G. Lessons learned on improving resistance of buildings to terrorist attacks Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 18 (2) 2004

Zhou, Q., Yu, T.X. Use of high-efficiency energy absorbing device to arrest progressive collapse of tall building Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 130 (10) 2004

Karim, Mohammed R.; Fatt, Michelle S. Hoo Impact of the Boeing 767 Aircraft into the World Trade Center. Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 131 Issue 10 2005

Usmani, A. S Stability of the World Trade Center Twin Towers Structural Frame in Multiple Floor Fires Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 131 Issue 6 2005

Omika, Yukihiro.; Fukuzawa, Eiji. Koshika, Norihide Structural Responses of World Trade Center under Aircraft Attacks Journal of Structural Engineering v. 131 no1 2005

Chang, Jeremy; Buchanan, Andrew H.; Moss, Peter J Effect of insulation on the fire behaviour of steel floor trusses Fire and Materials v.29 : 4 2005

Abolhassan, Genady P. Cherepanov September 11 And Fracture Mechanics, a Retrospective International Journal of Fracture v. 132 No. 2 2005

Baum, H.R., Rehm, R.G., Quintiere, J.G. A simple model of the World Trade Center fireball dynamics Proceedings of the Combustion Institute 2005

G. Flint, A.S. Usmani, S. Lamont, J. Torero and B. Lane, Effect of fire on composite long span truss floor systems Journal of Constructional Steel Research v. 62 (4) 2006

Gayle, F.W., Banovic, S.W., Foecke, T., Fields, R.J., Luecke, W.E., McColskey, J.D., McCown, C., Siewert, T.A. The structural steel of the World Trade Center towers Journal of Failure Analysis and Prevention v. 6 (5) 2006

Mohamed, O.A. Progressive collapse of structures: Annotated bibliography and comparison of codes and standards Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 20 (4) 2006


Zdenek P. Bazant, Mathieu Verdure Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 133 No. 3 2007

Banovic, S.W., Siewert, T.A. Failure of welded floor truss connections from the exterior wall during collapse of the world trade center towers Welding Journal v. 86 (9) 2007

Gayle, F.W. The collapse of the world trade center towers: A metallurgist's view MRS Bulletin v. 32 (9) 2007

Hansen, B. Building code changes reflect world trade center investigation Civil Engineering v. 77 (9) 2007

Graeme Flint, Asif Usmani, Susan Lamont, Barbara Lane, and Jose Torero Structural Response of Tall Buildings to Multiple Floor Fires Journal of Structural Engineering v. 133 Issue 12 2007

Ayhan Irfanoglu, Christoph M. Hoffmann An Engineering Perspective of the Collapse of WTC-1, Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 22 No. 1 2008

Keith A. Seffen Progressive Collapse of the World Trade Centre: a Simple Analysis Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 134 No. 2 2008

Zdenek P. Bazant, Jia-Liang Le, Frank R. Greening, David B. Benson What Did and Did not Cause Collapse of WTC Twin Towers in New York Journal of Engineering Mechanics v. 134 2008

Cherepanov, G.P. Collapse of towers as applied to September 11 events Materials Science v. 44 2008
Kuligowski, E.D., Mileti, D.S. Modeling pre-evacuation delay by occupants in World Trade Center Towers 1 and 2 on September 11 Fire Safety Journal 2008

Kodur, V.K.R. World Trade Center building disaster: Stimulus for innovations Indian Concrete Journal v. 82 2008

Ming Wang, Peter Chang, James Quintiere, and Andre Marshall Scale Modeling of the 96th Floor of World Trade Center Tower 1 Journal of Performance of Constructed Facilities v. 21 Issue 6

Genady P. Cherepanov Mechanics of the WTC collapse International Journal of Fracture v. 141 No. 1-2

B.A. Izzuddin, A.G. Vlassis, A.Y. Elghazouli, D.A. Nethercot Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to sudden column loss — Part I: Simplified assessment framework Engineering Structures v. 30, Issue 5 2008

A.G. Vlassis, B.A. Izzuddin, A.Y. Elghazouli, D.A. Nethercot Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to sudden column loss—Part II: Application Engineering Structures v. 30, Issue 5 2008

Jeom Kee Paik, Bong Ju Kim Progressive collapse analysis of thin-walled box columns Thin-Walled Structures v. 46, Issue 5 2008

Cheol-Ho Lee, Seonwoong Kim, Kyu-Hong Han, Kyungkoo Lee Simplified nonlinear progressive collapse analysis of welded steel moment frames Journal of Constructional Steel Research v. 65 Issue 5 2009

Feng Fu, Progressive collapse analysis of high-rise building with 3-D finite element modeling method Journal of Constructional Steel Research in press 2009

A.G. Vlassis, B.A. Izzuddin, A.Y. Elghazouli, D.A. Nethercot, Progressive collapse of multi-storey buildings due to failed floor impact Engineering Structures in press 2009

Santiago Pujol, J. Paul Smith-Pardo A new perspective on the effects of abrupt column removal Engineering Structures, v. 31, Issue 4 2009

Hyun-Su Kim, Jinkoo Kim, Da-Woon An Development of integrated system for progressive collapse analysis of building structures considering dynamic effects Advances in Engineering Software v.40, Issue 1 2009

Jinkoo Kim, Taewan Kim, Assessment of progressive collapse-resisting capacity of steel moment frames Journal of Constructional Steel Research v.65, Issue 1 2009






And some conferences:


Lu Xinzheng, Jiang Jianjing Simulation for the Collapse of WTC after Aeroplane Impact International Conference on Protection of Structures 2002

Dr. Arden L. Bement, Jr. “Learning from 9/11: Understanding the Collapse of the World Trade Center” Committee of Science House of Representatives 2002

Abboud, N., M. Levy, D. Tennant, J. Mould, H. Levine, S. King, C. Ekwueme, A. Jain, G. Hart. Anatomy of a Disaster: A Structural Investigation of the World Trade Center Collapses Third Congress on Forensic Engineering 2003

Beyler, C., D. White, M. Peatross, J. Trellis, S. Li, A. Luers, D. Hopkin Analysis of the Thermal Exposure in the Impact Areas of the World Trade Center Terrorist Attacks Third Congress on Forensic Engineering 2003

Thater, G. G.; Panariello, G. F.; Cuoco, D. A. World Trade Center Disaster: Damage/Debris Assessment Third Congress on Forensic Engineering 2003

Choi, S.K., Burgess, I.W. and Plank, R.J. The Behaviour of Lightweight Composite Floor Trusses in Fire Designing Structures for Fire 2003

Venkatash K. R. Kodur Role of fire resistance issues in the collapse of the Twin Towers International Conference on Tall Buildings 2003

Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl World Trade Center Collapse, Field Investigation and Analysis the Ninth Arab Structural Engineering Conference 2003

Mendonça, D., Lee II, E.E., Wallace, W.A. Impact of the 2001 World Trade Center attack on critical interdependent infrastructures IEEE International Conference on Systems 2004

Kuldeep Prasad and Howard R. Baum Coupled fire dynamics and thermal response of complex building structures Proceedings of the Combustion Institute 2005

Jowsey et all Determination of Fire Induced Collapse Mechanisms in Steel Framed Structures 4th European Conference on Steel and Composite Structures 2005

Usmani et all Collapse scenarios of WTC 1 & 2 with extension to generic tall buildings Congress on Fire Safety in Tall Buildings 2006

Marshall, A., Quintiere, J. A collective undergraduate class project reconstructing the September 11, 2001 world trade center fire ASEE Annual Conference and Exposition 2007

Pfatteicher, S.K.A "A new era": The limits of engineering expertise in a post-9/11 world International Symposium on Technology and Society 2007

Razdolsky, L. Fire load in a steel building design 4th International Structural Engineering and Construction Conference 2008

Rini, D., Lamont, S. Performance based structural fire engineering for modern building design Structures Congress 2008
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tsig said:
Whoever you're directing this to probably thinks they're who they are.
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I just checked in the mirror. It's me. A person who believes the official story about 911. Truthers don't,but refuse to tell me why.
 
Childlike Empress said:
You genius still owe me an apology for calling me a serial liar while foaming at the mouth and posting ridiculous nonsense which was instantly teared down by me in the very next post.

The latest crop of peanut gallery is the worst this forum has ever seen. Utterly pathetic.
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3b-1953towel.jpg
 
Dave Rogers said:
And that, paperboy05, is as much as you'll get from RedIbis except for a vague statement that Silverstein made out like a bandit from the insurance claims.

Dave
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I do get moderately excited each new time that topic comes up, hoping that some new, unknown information will come out. Apparently him making out like a bandit really isn't that big of a deal, if the evidence behind it should continually be hidden by those that make the claim :boggled:
 
Grizzly Bear said:
I don't buy this as being genuine... It's a perfectly legitimate response if someone's asking you to divulge details of your personal life on a forum where people have no business knowing it. However the questions you just went over aren't concerned with that. Folks like you and redibis contend that your views are being distorted unfairly by your detractors, this screams the opposite of what you say here.
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Yeah. Essentially crying "nobody understands me" in one breath and huffing "what I think is none of your business" in the next breath doesn't make for a respectable mix.

I don't understand what they think they're accomplishing with that sort of "participation" in a discussion/debate. Either you 1) clarify your position as best as you can, 2) stop complaining when people incorrectly interpret your position based on what little information you've provided, or 3) just keep your fool mouth shut from the start.
 
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Cl1mh4224rd said:
Yeah. Essentially crying "nobody understands me" in one breath and huffing "what I think is none of your business" in the next breath doesn't make for a respectable mix.

I don't understand what they think they're accomplishing with that sort of "participation" in a discussion/debate. Either you 1) clarify your position as best as you can, 2) stop complaining when people incorrectly interpret your position based on what little information you've provided, or 3) just keep your fool mouth shut from the start.
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Two things I've seen which likely overlap with what others have seen:
A) Their claims are made insinuating that the "facts" of their arguments are self-evident and requires no further explanation about what components of the articles are relevant.

B) Responding to specific inquiries that require detailed input places an increased burden of proof on them to corroborate the claims they present. Almost always in my exchanges with them revealed whatever deficiencies existed in their case points.

It tries to open "wiggle room" to say that people aren't reading their content while being able to avoid explaining the merits of the case.

\If it was a simple matter of being flooded with responses on how dumb the theory is I doubt we'd see much of that topic and similar ones to begin with. That's my impression...
 
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ElMondoHummus said:
Nothing, of course. He's speaking nonsense. If he stopped and thought about what he's saying, he'd realize that he's not talking about 9/11 at all. Everyone else realizes that the 9/11 jets flew over Massachusettes, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Virginia, etc.

Since he's invoking the Atlantic, he's probably groping towards referring to the ADIZ. And since he thinks that's a no-fly zone, he's showing that he doesn't know what he's talking about. If any of the hijacked flights ever flew over the ocean, the ADIZ may have become somewhat relevant, but none of them did.
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http://www.allyoucanread.com/top-10-science-magazines/

National Geographic Magazine
A monthly publication with occasional special editions, National Geographic provides you with everything you need to know about scenery, history and traveling to all ends of the earth. National Geographic is most well known for its award winning photojournalism.
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Some science source.

Many of the debunkers have stated that the military was only prepared for attacks from outside the continental US.
Stands to reason no fly zones would only be enforced against planes from outside the continental US.

FYI :rolleyes: means sarcasm
 
Clayton Moore said:
http://www.allyoucanread.com/top-10-science-magazines/

National Geographic Magazine

Some science source.
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I didn't cite a single Nat Geo article in that list of engineering and professional journals. Funny how you chose to cut that out to raise a straw man.

Here's an excerpted list from the two I gave you above showing all the journals with the word "National" in them, as well as the listed conferences of engineering professionals
  • Abolhassan, Genady P. Cherepanov September 11 And Fracture Mechanics, a Retrospective International Journal of Fracture v. 132 No. 2 2005
  • Genady P. Cherepanov Mechanics of the WTC collapse International Journal of Fracture v. 141 No. 1-2
  • Lu Xinzheng, Jiang Jianjing Simulation for the Collapse of WTC after Aeroplane Impact International Conference on Protection of Structures 2002
  • Venkatash K. R. Kodur Role of fire resistance issues in the collapse of the Twin Towers International Conference on Tall Buildings 2003
  • Mendonça, D., Lee II, E.E., Wallace, W.A. Impact of the 2001 World Trade Center attack on critical interdependent infrastructures IEEE International Conference on Systems 2004
So, you want to raise more strawmen about what the scientific consensus is? Be my guest. Just remember: The scientific consensus is established, and it's not in conspiracy peddler's favor. And yes, those lists are about engineering issues with the WTC on 9/11, so they indeed are relevant to this discussion.

Furthermore, I'm not the ones attributing fictional points to our opponents. You are. I did not say a single thing about National Geographic in my posts to you. So next time you respond, address what I write, not your illusion about what you thought I was referring to.

Clayton Moore said:
Many of the debunkers have stated that the military was only prepared for attacks from outside the continental US.
Stands to reason no fly zones would only be enforced against planes from outside the continental US.
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Still don't know what an ADIZ is, do you? Hint: It's not a "no fly zone".

Two: FAA "Prohibited Areas" are well known:
  • Thurmont, Maryland, site of Presidential retreat Camp David (Prohibited Area 40 or P-40)
  • Amarillo, Texas, Pantex nuclear assembly plant (P-47)
  • Naval Submarine Base Kings Bay, Georgia (P-50)
  • Naval Base Kitsap, Washington (P-51)
  • Washington, D.C., Capitol and White House (P-56); see other restrictions for information about all Active Prohibited Areas in the Washington D.C./Baltimore Flight Restricted Zone.
  • Bush compound near Kennebunkport, Maine (P-67)
  • Mount Vernon, Virginia, home of George Washington (to prevent vibrations) (P-73)
  • Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness in northern Minnesota (P-204, 205, and 206)
  • Merritt Island, Florida. All civilian flight operations in and around the island are prohibited due to NASA and U.S. military operations at the Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station.
  • Disneyland Resort, in Anaheim, California
  • Walt Disney World Resort, in Central Florida (near Orlando). The zone extends to 3,000 feet (910 metres) in a 3-nautical-mile (5.6-kilometre) radius centered from the Main Spire of Cinderella's Castle in the Magic Kingdom Theme Park.
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And out of all of those, only one could even remotely have had to do with 9/11, had it actually been in place in 2001. And that's the obvious one listing DC.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? There is a lot to learn about this history, and you don't do yourself any favors by arrogantly presuming to tell us myths we refuted back in 2006. Get smarter: Look things up before you spout off on them.

And last:
Clayton Moore said:
FYI :rolleyes: means sarcasm
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Quit the arrogance. You haven't earned a single bit of slack here with your posts, let alone any respect. You earn respect by arguing factually, putting together well supported points, and not rehashing old, disproven mythologies. Keep this up, and you'll end up on ignore by some of us, and a target for the rest of the folks here who like poking sticks at presumptuous truthers.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Stands to reason no fly zones would only be enforced against planes from outside the continental US.
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There is no such thing as an Atlantic 'no fly zone'.

There are zones referred to as ADIZ in which all aircraft must be readily identified.
All of the aircraft on 9/11 were readily identified when they first appeared on radar, AND they originated from, and stayed within, the borders of the USA and therefor were NEVER a concern to NORAD until AFTER it was apparent that they had been hijacked.

Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the purpose of the North American Defense Network and its origins. It was formed to protect Canada and the USA from Soviet attack. You know the guys living accross the north pole from us then.
 
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ElMondoHummus said:
I didn't cite a single Nat Geo article in that list of engineering and professional journals. Funny how you chose to cut that out to raise a straw man.

Here's an excerpted list from the two I gave you above showing all the journals with the word "National" in them, as well as the listed conferences of engineering professionals
  • Abolhassan, Genady P. Cherepanov September 11 And Fracture Mechanics, a Retrospective International Journal of Fracture v. 132 No. 2 2005
  • Genady P. Cherepanov Mechanics of the WTC collapse International Journal of Fracture v. 141 No. 1-2
  • Lu Xinzheng, Jiang Jianjing Simulation for the Collapse of WTC after Aeroplane Impact International Conference on Protection of Structures 2002
  • Venkatash K. R. Kodur Role of fire resistance issues in the collapse of the Twin Towers International Conference on Tall Buildings 2003
  • Mendonça, D., Lee II, E.E., Wallace, W.A. Impact of the 2001 World Trade Center attack on critical interdependent infrastructures IEEE International Conference on Systems 2004
So, you want to raise more strawmen about what the scientific consensus is? Be my guest. Just remember: The scientific consensus is established, and it's not in conspiracy peddler's favor. And yes, those lists are about engineering issues with the WTC on 9/11, so they indeed are relevant to this discussion.

Furthermore, I'm not the ones attributing fictional points to our opponents. You are. I did not say a single thing about National Geographic in my posts to you. So next time you respond, address what I write, not your illusion about what you thought I was referring to.



Still don't know what an ADIZ is, do you? Hint: It's not a "no fly zone".

Two: FAA "Prohibited Areas" are well known:
​

And out of all of those, only one could even remotely have had to do with 9/11, had it actually been in place in 2001. And that's the obvious one listing DC.

You really don't know what you're talking about, do you? There is a lot to learn about this history, and you don't do yourself any favors by arrogantly presuming to tell us myths we refuted back in 2006. Get smarter: Look things up before you spout off on them.

And last:

Quit the arrogance. You haven't earned a single bit of slack here with your posts, let alone any respect. You earn respect by arguing factually, putting together well supported points, and not rehashing old, disproven mythologies. Keep this up, and you'll end up on ignore by some of us, and a target for the rest of the folks here who like poking sticks at presumptuous truthers.
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My little finger allows me. If you are intimidated by my superiority just let it out. I saw all the 9/11 history required when I saw the videos of the three "collapses."

As for earning some sort of respect from you PTI..... ROTFL

The truster explanations are like the explanations of a 9 year old caught in a lie. You go with your strawmen garbage. Your look over here, look over there, will freaking never disprove the image of the explosive destruction of those buildings and the slaughter of my countrymen. Shame we didn't learn our lesson after June 8, 1967.
 
Clayton Moore said:
My little finger allows me. If you are intimidated by my superiority just let it out. I saw all the 9/11 history required when I saw the videos of the three "collapses."

As for earning some sort of respect from you PTI..... ROTFL

The truster explanations are like the explanations of a 9 year old caught in a lie. You go with your strawmen garbage. Your look over here, look over there, will freaking never disprove the image of the explosive destruction of those buildings and the slaughter of my countrymen. Shame we didn't learn our lesson after June 8, 1967.
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So you still don't address the list of research journals, nor your total misunderstanding of the difference between an ADIZ and FAA Prohibited Area? Instead, you bluster, then meander into irrelevancies? Can't make your arguments stand on merit, can you?

Let me know when you can address substance. Such as the demonstration of what the "scientific" (in reality, engineering, but distinctions like that are apparently lost on you) consensus is. And the fact that we've clearly demonstrated 1. That you have no clue what an ADIZ is even after we link you to an explanation and 2. That you still haven't established what either an ADIZ or a Prohibited Area has to do with any of the posts you've composed so far. Probably because you don't know and are just throwing terms around that you don't understand; that tends to be the case with truthers like you who try to hide their lack of facts behind vague, generalized arguments. Anyway, let someone here know when you're ready for substance and fact. Until then, have fun getting ridiculed by others.
 
Clayton Moore said:
My little finger allows me. If you are intimidated by my superiority just let it out. I saw all the 9/11 history required when I saw the videos of the three "collapses."

As for earning some sort of respect from you PTI..... ROTFL

The truster explanations are like the explanations of a 9 year old caught in a lie. You go with your strawmen garbage. Your look over here, look over there, will freaking never disprove the image of the explosive destruction of those buildings and the slaughter of my countrymen. Shame we didn't learn our lesson after June 8, 1967.
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Ladies and gentlemen the above is a prime example of one way that people can sometimes be erroneously convicted in a court of law.
 
Clayton Moore said:
My little finger allows me. If you are intimidated by my superiority just let it out. I saw all the 9/11 history required when I saw the videos of the three "collapses."
As for earning some sort of respect from you PTI..... ROTFL

The truster explanations are like the explanations of a 9 year old caught in a lie. You go with your strawmen garbage. Your look over here, look over there, will freaking never disprove the image of the explosive destruction of those buildings and the slaughter of my countrymen. Shame we didn't learn our lesson after June 8, 1967.
Click to expand...

You saw, you believed, no math, no knowledge of engineering just your calibrated eyeball that is capable of discerning that "something is wrong".
 
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