Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[LemmyCaution]

Kremer's diary entries need to be considered in the context of the long standing fear among the eastern European Jews of German delousing procedures.

This is a description of a German delousing as seen by a Jewish women who was subjected to it. This was published in 1912 but refers to an incident from the late 19th century:



I can imagine watching this sort of reaction from the German side could be very disturbing. I can also imagine it would be very frustrating to be part of the contingent that was responsible for keeping ordering during this procedure. You can be patient when a three year old is afraid of the bath but a whole trainload of adult Jews believing they're going to die just because you want them clean is a bit much.

The racist depiction of eastern Jews as naive primitives aside, this is so much nonsense. In one of Rodoh's many demolition exercises on this hoary old gambit, I posted about the delousing station these supposedly childlike and terrified Jews had in Kovno:

Oh the Primitive Terror, the Typical Ignorant Hysteria of Jews and Their Fear of Delousing!

From the diary of Avraham Tory, Kovno ghetto

20 May 1942:

A lice disinfection center has been opened in the ghetto.

3 December 1942:

An institute for delousing and destroying various insect pests was recently opened in the Ghetto; 4,000 were designated to be checked by the institute.

From the memoir of Jack Brauns, Kovno, concerning mid-October 1942

To combat the spread of [typhus], the German authorities established in Kovno a delousing center for wounded German soldiers; it was situated at 4 Vytauto Street. Wounded soldiers were taken off the trains and transported to the center. Their heads were shaved. They were bathed, and their clothes were disinfected. All this work was carried out by Jewish workers brought daily from the Ghetto. . . . An epidemic of typhus, with a high mortality rate, broke out among the Lithuanian workers at the delousing center. . . . There was indeed an epidemic of typhus in the Ghetto [too]. It came from three sources: from the inmates who had to work at the delousing center; from the Ghetto workshops, where articles of clothing received were supposed to have already been disinfected, but where live lice were often found in the clothes; and from inmates transferred from other camps (Zezmer -- nine cases). . . . At the time of the visit of the Lithuanian doctors, twenty-nine people in the Ghetto were infected with typhus. . . . Dr. Brauns gave special instructions to each of the affected families. . . . Dr. Brauns was able to increase the distribution of soap, wood, and food rations to the typhus patients. . . . .

- - - - - - - - -

Just as though they were people, Jews in the 1940s, the era under discussion, were concerned about the spread of disease, understood the causes of the spread of typhus, for example, and deployed medical and public health knowledge to combat the spread of disease. It is more than doubtful that people confused delousing stations with gas chambers, leaving aside that of the Jews murdered by the Nazis, about whom the Jews are "hysterical," were 2.5 million not gassed, as estimated by Raul Hilberg thus:

- ghettoisation and general: 800,000

- transit and concentration camps, other: 300,000

- Open air shootings: 1,400,000

- death camps: up to 2,600,000

total: 5,100,000

 

[Corsair 115]

I for one do not deny German transgressions. I deny that the evidence for gas chambers, a state-sponsored plan to exterminate the Jews, and six million intentionally murdered as part of this plan is compelling. Evidently those three elements are the only ones that comprise the holocaust.

And what of the roughly five million non-Jews exterminated in the camps? Are these made up as well?

Faked? A lie is a lie.

Non-response noted. Once again: was Allied fakery of atrocities limited only to German or did it also include Japan as well?


And if it was only Germany, why? Why was it the subject of a massive, concerted effort to engineer evidence of an atrocity which never occurred while Japan wasn't? It's not as if the Allies needed to remind Germany it had been defeated in the war—its shattered cities and ruined economy were proof enough of that. Germany and the German people could have no illusions, their nation had been soundly defeated. So what's the point of this supposed Grand Global Conspiracy Group™ to create false claims that Germany rounded up and exterminated roughly six million Jews and five million non-Jews? What's the point? Especially since Germany was soon seen as a vital ally against the Soviet Union.

Do you have any other even remotely reasonable explanation other than it being the "evil Jews!" being out to get Germany for some reason?

 

[Wroclaw]

So, you have a vested interest in the Holocaust lies?

What?

 

[Wroclaw]

The racist depiction of eastern Jews as naive primitives aside, this is so much nonsense. In one of Rodoh's many demolition exercises on this hoary old gambit, I posted about the delousing station these supposedly childlike and terrified Jews had in Kovno

I'm losing track, but didn't we do this one already? Seventy-seven percent of Poland's Jews lived in cities. The percentage living in cities in the USSR or Hungary might have been lower, but they were industrialized countries. Further, the whole matter of a sizeable percentage of Eastern European Jews having been veterans of WWI, or at least of the tsarist army, would have subjected them to delousing at some point.

It's a red herring. That's all.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I'm losing track, but didn't we do this one already? Seventy-seven percent of Poland's Jews lived in cities. The percentage living in cities in the USSR or Hungary might have been lower, but they were industrialized countries. Further, the whole matter of a sizeable percentage of Eastern European Jews having been veterans of WWI, or at least of the tsarist army, would have subjected them to delousing at some point.

It's a red herring. That's all.

Done to death on Rodoh, for sure. A red herring seasoned with racism.

 

[Clayton Moore]

And what of the roughly five million non-Jews exterminated in the camps? Are these made up as well?





Non-response noted. Once again: was Allied fakery of atrocities limited only to German or did it also include Japan as well?


And if it was only Germany, why? Why was it the subject of a massive, concerted effort to engineer evidence of an atrocity which never occurred while Japan wasn't? It's not as if the Allies needed to remind Germany it had been defeated in the war—its shattered cities and ruined economy were proof enough of that. Germany and the German people could have no illusions, their nation had been soundly defeated. So what's the point of this supposed Grand Global Conspiracy Group™ to create false claims that Germany rounded up and exterminated roughly six million Jews and five million non-Jews? What's the point? Especially since Germany was soon seen as a vital ally against the Soviet Union.

Do you have any other even remotely reasonable explanation other than it being the "evil Jews!" being out to get Germany for some reason?

64,000,000,000 reasons

 

[Wroclaw]

64,000,000,000 reasons

What?

 

[Clayton Moore]

The racist depiction of eastern Jews as naive primitives aside, this is so much nonsense. In one of Rodoh's many demolition exercises on this hoary old gambit, I posted about the delousing station these supposedly childlike and terrified Jews had in Kovno:

How about the Holocaust central depiction of Jewish people, about a million of them, going to the extermination camps in 1942 and getting gassed to death? Then about a million more of them going to the extermination camps in 1943 and getting gassed to death? Then about a million more of them going to the extermination camps in 1944 and getting gassed to death?

The most educated people on the planet didn't catch on? That's not much of a depiction of Jewish people by their own is it?

Talk about ridiculing the Jewish people of the 1940's.

 

[Clayton Moore]

What?

reparations

 

[LemmyCaution]

How about the Holocaust central depiction of Jewish people, about a million of them, going to the extermination camps in 1942 and getting gassed to death? Then about a million more of them going to the extermination camps in 1943 and getting gassed to death? Then about a million more of them going to the extermination camps in 1944 and getting gassed to death?

The most educated people on the planet didn't catch on? That's not much of a depiction of Jewish people by their own is it?

Talk about ridiculing the Jewish people of the 1940's.

You leave important factors out, eh. You leave out the character of the occupation, for one thing. You leave out various strategies Jews felt would lead to outlasting the attacks on them and thus survival, for another. You leave out the lessons of history, which proved misleading in confrontation with the Nazis. You leave out how reasonable strategies and hope were thwarted in novel ways. You leave out Jewish resistance. Your caricature is something you've devised to belittle and bait Jews, not "the Holocaust central depiction," a nearly illiterate phrase by the way.

 

[kageki]

Telling the truth is not way out of line,the mods know that. My uncle Jim was not a liar,unlike denialists. I don't know why you hate Jews and deny the Holocaust,could you please enlighten me?

Did your uncle Jim see people being gassed?

No what you said was that someone hoped for another Holocaust and hated Jews. That is what I am referring to as out of line.

No I do not hate Jews or anyone for that matter just because. I deny the gas chambers because it seems implausible.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I deny the gas chambers because it seems implausible.

Which is what really seems implausible, that is, that a person would deny (refuse to admit the existence of something) the gas chambers because they seem implausible, without reference to the evidence and discussions of their existence, voluminous in fact. Crap, quantum physics seem implausible, but there is much evidence concerning quantum physics apart from my common sense view of how they seem implausible, and the Red Sox comeback, down 3-0 against the Yankees in '04 and then their sweep of the World Serious, also seemed implausible and do even now, and yet. And so on. Many things seem implausible and yet we know they happened because of the evidence and how people have worked with it. This seeming is a very flimsy reason to refuse to admit the existence of something, the gas chambers or whatever, and makes me think that there is in this case, that of the extermination of the Jews, really another reason for your denying, having nothing to do with what seems plausible or not.

 

[Wroclaw]

and the Red Sox comeback, down 3-0 against the Yankees in '04 and then their sweep of the World Serious, also seemed implausible and do even now

Heh. Tell me about it.

 

[kageki]

Which is what really seems implausible, that is, that a person would deny (refuse to admit the existence of something) the gas chambers because they seem implausible, without reference to the evidence and discussions of their existence, voluminous in fact. Crap, quantum physics seem implausible, but there is much evidence concerning quantum physics apart from my common sense view of how they seem implausible, and the Red Sox comeback, down 3-0 against the Yankees in '04 and then their sweep of the World Serious, also seemed implausible and do even now, and yet. And so on. Many things seem implausible and yet we know they happened because of the evidence and how people have worked with it. This seeming is a very flimsy reason to refuse to admit the existence of something, the gas chambers or whatever, and makes me think that there is in this case, that of the extermination of the Jews, really another reason for your denying, having nothing to do with what seems plausible or not.

The evidence is almost entirely testimony.

It is implausible that 10,000 people can be cremated in one day. It is implausible that Irene Zisblatt could have escaped the gas chamber in the alleged manner. That is the kind of implausibility I am talking about despite what someone said.

Some of the other reasons have already been discussed and it has nothing to do with the main victims being Jews. I would have disputed it if it were Gypsies or anyone else instead. The complications of mass gassing and disposal are enormous.

 

[TheRedWorm]

The evidence is almost entirely testimony.

It is implausible that 10,000 people can be cremated in one day. It is implausible that Irene Zisblatt could have escaped the gas chamber in the alleged manner. That is the kind of implausibility I am talking about despite what someone said.

Some of the other reasons have already been discussed and it has nothing to do with the main victims being Jews. I would have disputed it if it were Gypsies or anyone else instead. The complications of mass gassing and disposal are enormous.

And yet the nazis were industrious enough to figure out a way. Plus, you are still saying the same thing, that implausible == didn't happen. Sorry to put this so harshly, but that you don't think it's plausible matters not one bit to anyone but you. It happened; that you deny that fact is your own problem.

 

[Wroclaw]

The evidence is almost entirely testimony.

Wrong. Well, half-wrong.

These are forensic studies as well as documents pointing to gassing.

Furthermore, you not only have the testimony of survivors, but you have the testimony of perpetrators as well.

When you have a variety of testimony from varying sources, plus documents and forensics, then you have convergence of evidence. Any alternative explanation of these facts requires you to violate the principal of Occam's razor.

It is implausible that 10,000 people can be cremated in one day.

Really? Why?

It is implausible that Irene Zisblatt could have escaped the gas chamber in the alleged manner. That is the kind of implausibility I am talking about despite what someone said.

Nice try. When you put 10,000 cremated in one day next to Zisblatt, you attempt to conflate the two.

We're not going to allow that to go unnoticed.

Some of the other reasons have already been discussed and it has nothing to do with the main victims being Jews. I would have disputed it if it were Gypsies or anyone else instead. The complications of mass gassing and disposal are enormous.

Do you disbelieve that the communists under Stalin killed far more than six million people? Yes or no?

 

[MG1962]

The evidence is almost entirely testimony.

It is implausible that 10,000 people can be cremated in one day. It is implausible that Irene Zisblatt could have escaped the gas chamber in the alleged manner. That is the kind of implausibility I am talking about despite what someone said.

Sorry the whole idea of mentioning WW2 and implausable in the same sentence becomes a mute point once you read Solomon Perel's story

 

[kageki]

Sorry the whole idea of mentioning WW2 and implausable in the same sentence becomes a mute point once you read Solomon Perel's story

Exactly more testimony basically.

Henry Makow basically denies the gas chambers, but feels the gas vans still happened and that is still another slightly different topic. That is still denial, but what do you think of such partial denial? Makow is a popular CT writer and also a son of Holocaust survivors.

 

[Clayton Moore]

The evidence is almost entirely testimony.

It is implausible that 10,000 people can be cremated in one day. It is implausible that Irene Zisblatt could have escaped the gas chamber in the alleged manner. That is the kind of implausibility I am talking about despite what someone said.

Some of the other reasons have already been discussed and it has nothing to do with the main victims being Jews. I would have disputed it if it were Gypsies or anyone else instead. The complications of mass gassing and disposal are enormous.

The whole point of the Holocaust lies and exaggerations is
to perpetuate that any dispute with Jewish people is antisemitism based. As can be clearly seen throughout the thread everyone and anyone will be diminished to that end.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Exactly more testimony basically.

Henry Makow basically denies the gas chambers, but feels the gas vans still happened and that is still another slightly different topic. That is still denial, but what do you think of such partial denial? Makow is a popular CT writer and also a son of Holocaust survivors.

http://www.henrymakow.com/000447.html

Never heard of him.