General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[angrysoba]

So what does the House of Lords do, other than giving upper class twits an office and expense account?

They deliberate, chinwag and fall asleep and dribble on the furniture.

As it happens some people I know have said that some very intelligent debates go on in there and the Lords can feel free to not have to pander to voters given that they can't lose their seats.

They can and have made it a tad more difficult for certain legislation to be passed in a precipitous manner by sending it back for a year (it used to be two years) and arguing that the legislation is rubbish in its present form and will lead to dire consequences but they have no power to stall indefinitely.

 

[stokes234]

So what does the House of Lords do, other than giving upper class twits an office and expense account?

Weeell, not much else, to be honest. It serves as a check on a parliament that is trying to rush through bills before their actual content has time to seep out through the media into the public conscience - as I said, if the House of Lords rejects something parliament can push it through, but that takes up to a year, and if over the course of that year the bill becomes hugely unpopular in the media, the government might withdraw it.

 

[a_unique_person]

Because the Arabs couldn't make the Western-style institutions left over from colonialism work. They were sized by the most ruthless tribes and turned into instruments of repression and control, due to ingrained tribal habits which never had any concept of consensual rule or compromise.

Have you had a chat to Matt yet? I think you two would get along well.

 

[a_unique_person]

This is a complete non-sequitur. You're complaining that Bibi hasn't given details at negotiations that have never happened.

Details of negotiations are provided at the negotiating table, not to an address to a third-party's Congress.

Of course, the Palestinians have steadfastly refused to negotiate.

He has made this non-negotiable.

''I want to be very clear on this point. Israel will be generous on the size of a Palestinian state but will be very firm on where we put the border with it. This is an important principle [that] shouldn't be lost.''

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/world/neta...ress-speech-20110525-1f49a.html#ixzz1NNDdtdMT"

One of the most important detaila, the border, will be decided by Israel. Apart from that, they will be generous. I think after claiming the first point, any generosity will be by definition impossible.

 

[bigjelmapro]

One of the most important detaila, the border, will be decided by Israel. Apart from that, they will be generous. I think after claiming the first point, any generosity will be by definition impossible.

Doesn't state that the border will be decided by Israel, but through negotiations, as it has through all the previous peace negotiations.

Another excerpt:

The status of the settlements will be decided only in negotiations. But we must also be honest. So I am saying today something that should be said publicly by anyone serious about peace. In any peace agreement that ends the conflict, some settlements will end up beyond Israel’s borders. The precise delineation of those borders must be negotiated. We will be very generous on the size of a future Palestinian state. But as President Obama said, the border will be different than the one that existed on June 4, 1967. Israel will not return to the indefensible lines of 1967.

I see you gave up on another one of your favorite terms (fascism) for the time being as you don't have one iota what it means. Same with apartheid.

Pure comedy.

 

[Thunder]

Nice of Netanyahu to state one important detail about his peace proposal: the Palestinians will not get any part of Jerusalem.

what a scumbag. telling the world that "Jerusalem will remain united under Israeli soveriegnity" is like a big middle-finger to the Arabs.

 

[bikerdruid]

Nice of Netanyahu to state one important detail about his peace proposal: the Palestinians will not get any part of Jerusalem.

what a scumbag. telling the world that "Jerusalem will remain united under Israeli soveriegnity" is like a big middle-finger to the Arabs.

after listening to him yesterday, i realized what a scumbag he really is.
he is not interested in peace.
he offered nothing.
he is a pig.

 

[Thunder]

after listening to him yesterday, i realized what a scumbag he really is.
he is not interested in peace.
he offered nothing.
he is a pig.

yes, he offered nothing....other than Jerusalem shall be united forever, and the Palestinians can shove it.

 

[Ziggurat]

after listening to him yesterday, i realized what a scumbag he really is.
he is not interested in peace.
he offered nothing.
he is a pig.

Sure. Keep telling yourself that. Even though he acknowledged that Palestinians should have their own state:
"My friends, this must come to an end. President Abbas must do what I have done. I stood before my people, and I told you it wasn’t easy for me, and I said… “I will accept a Palestinian state.” It is time for President Abbas to stand before his people and say… “I will accept a Jewish state.”"

What was Abbas's response? Did he rise to that challenge? Did he show himself willing to say, “I will accept a Jewish state.”?

No, he did not. Instead, he said, "Netanyahu, you are incidental in history. We are the people of history. We are the owners of history."

“We cannot negotiate with those who say, ‘What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is negotiable.’” — John F. Kennedy

 

[Matt Giwer]

The Allies promised the Arabs democracy in the Middle East. What democracy was set up in the Middle East after WW1??

answer: none.

Lebanon 1943. Five years before Israel and eleven years before people dumb enough to say Israel is the only democracy.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Because the Arabs couldn't make the Western-style institutions left over from colonialism work. They were sized by the most ruthless tribes and turned into instruments of repression and control, due to ingrained tribal habits which never had any concept of consensual rule or compromise.

As all educated people know there were no Arabs under European control after WWI. So obviously there was no attempt to establish democracies among Arabs.

 

[a_unique_person]

Doesn't state that the border will be decided by Israel, but through negotiations, as it has through all the previous peace negotiations.

Another excerpt:


I see you gave up on another one of your favorite terms (fascism) for the time being as you don't have one iota what it means. Same with apartheid.

Pure comedy.

The belief that winning makes it right is fascism.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Have you had a chat to Matt yet? I think you two would get along well.

No we would not.

I have a very low tolerance for intelligent, educated people who deliberately post things they know are not true.

I surprise myself with my restraint in responding to them.

Look at his last about "Arabs". He knows full well Arabic speaking people and Arabs are entirely different groups. Yet he deliberately posts as though they were the same group. He knows that pegs the meter.

​

Perhaps that is why he does it. It is not possible to guess his motivation.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Doesn't state that the border will be decided by Israel, but through negotiations, as it has through all the previous peace negotiations.

As you know, in the rest of his speech he removed everything from negotiations and promised they would continue to live under the jewish tyranny unless they accepted all the diktats in the speech.

Can you say tyrannical, jewish dictatorship?

I knew you could.

 

[Matt Giwer]

after listening to him yesterday, i realized what a scumbag he really is.
he is not interested in peace.
he offered nothing.
he is a pig.

Israel has never offered anything. If you think they have post the URL. There is nothing to post. If it was not in writing there was nothing offered.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Sure. Keep telling yourself that. Even though he acknowledged that Palestinians should have their own state:
"My friends, this must come to an end. President Abbas must do what I have done. I stood before my people, and I told you it wasn’t easy for me, and I said… “I will accept a Palestinian state.” It is time for President Abbas to stand before his people and say… “I will accept a Jewish state.”

Everyone including you who knows this subject knows that is a lie. State is state. In neither case is it qualified. As you know there is no hint of equal states being discussed. Both demilitarized or both militarized? Both nuclear powers or neither nuclear powers? Both with control of their air space and radio spectrum or neither? Both with control of their borders or neither? Both with a military presence of the other in their state or neither?

Please stop posting what you know is not true.

But even the words he did use Palestinian and Jewish state are deliberate deception and it is not clear why you would continue his deception when you know it is deception.

The word Palestinian means for Palestinians regardless of race, color or creed. Jewish means a jewish supremacist state to make Wallace and Faubus proud.

The statement is a lie no matter how you look at it. You are obviously intelligent enough to know it is a lie. Why do you deliberately promote what you know is a lie?

 

[Ziggurat]

The word Palestinian means for Palestinians regardless of race, color or creed. Jewish means a jewish supremacist state to make Wallace and Faubus proud.

Because if there's one thing that we know, it's that Palestinians are just so much more inclusive than Israelis.

The statement is a lie no matter how you look at it. You are obviously intelligent enough to know it is a lie. Why do you deliberately promote what you know is a lie?

Don't lecture me about lies after that little bit of performance art.

The fact of the matter is that Israel is interested in preserving its own security, while the Palestinians are interested in the destruction of Israel. That's the reality of the situation, a reality you're doing your best to deny.

 

[a_unique_person]

Doesn't state that the border will be decided by Israel, but through negotiations, as it has through all the previous peace negotiations.

Another excerpt:


I see you gave up on another one of your favorite terms (fascism) for the time being as you don't have one iota what it means. Same with apartheid.

Pure comedy.

What did I give up? I did not accuse Israel or Jews of fascism. I said anyone who says winning makes it right is a fascist. You win every debate by inventing something I didn't say, then saying it was wrong.

 

[BeAChooser]

Israel has never offered anything.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf22.html#v

MYTH

“The Palestinians have never been offered a state of their own.”

FACT

The Palestinians have actually had numerous opportunities to create an independent state, but have repeatedly rejected the offers:

• In 1937, the Peel Commission proposed the partition of Palestine and the creation of an Arab state.

• In 1939, the British White Paper proposed the creation of an Arab state alone, but the Arabs rejected the plan.

• In 1947, the UN would have created an even larger Arab state as part of its partition plan.

• From 1948 to 1967, Israel did not control the West Bank. The Palestinians could have demanded an independent state from the Jordanians.

• The 1979 Egypt-Israel peace negotiations offered the Palestinians autonomy, which would almost certainly have led to full independence.

• The Oslo process that began in 1993 was leading toward the creation of a Palestinian state before the Palestinians violated their commitments and scuttled the agreements.

• In 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to create a Palestinian state, but Yasser Arafat rejected the deal.

http://www.beyondimages.info/b21.html

CAMP DAVID AND TABA: What did Israel offer?

… snip …

Conclusion
Israel’s proposals at Camp David and at Taba constituted the most far-reaching proposals made by Israel since the 1967 Six Day War. The Palestinians showed themselves to be simply unwilling to respond. No amount of rewriting of what happened at the talks can change that reality.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Because if there's one thing that we know, it's that Palestinians are just so much more inclusive than Israelis.

The issue is why you deliberately post what you know is false. Your approach is it admit you know what you posted is false and make a suggestive allegation without presenting the least evidence in the matter.

You know that is also a deliberate attempt to deceive. Why do you do it?

Don't lecture me about lies after that little bit of performance art.

Obviously I am not lecturing. I am pointing out that a person of your knowledge and intelligence is deliberately posting what you know to be false. Why do you do it?

The fact of the matter is that Israel is interested in preserving its own security, while the Palestinians are interested in the destruction of Israel. That's the reality of the situation, a reality you're doing your best to deny.

To review the bidding, Jews deliberately destroyed Palestine. That intention has been in publication since Jabotinsky's Iron Wall. That was in fact deliberately carried out with a population expulsion in 1948 and with property theft via the absentee owner laws ever since.

Palestinians have a right to the same justice Israel demands for Jews. The consequences of justice are what they are.

Israel demands Jewish property rights going back to the 1930s from Germany. Israel demands Jews have the right to live in Germany even if Russians whose ancestors never lived in Germany.

If Jews do not like those consequences then Jews should not have chosen to live with those consequences. No one forced Jews to go to Palestine. No one forced them to steal private property. No one is forcing them to keep private property. Everything they did and are doing is their free will choice as is their choice to live with the consequences of their actions.

If they do not like the consequences they should not have done what they did and should not be doing what they are doing.

The whining is getting intense.