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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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Thunder said:
I'm sure Bibi is glad to know he has a supporter at JREF, who will go to great lengths to make excuses for his inherent inability to provide substance. ;)

wanna know what Bibi SHOULD have said today?

he should have offered the Palestinians this: Israel will fully withdraw to the Seperation Wall, in exchange for a Palestinian declaration that they totally abandon the use of force against Israel to seek redress for claims dealing with the 1948, 1967, and 1973 wars...and shall rely solely on negotiations from here forward. This temporary border will me monitored and patrolled by a United Nations or other international peacekeeping force until final negotiations are complete, leading to the declaration of the independent state of Palestine.

then, with the Palestinians in control of 90% of the West Bank, Israel and the Palestinians will negotiate on the final status of Jerusalem, the Old City, and the refugees. However, if negotiations fail...or reach a stumbling block, Israel shall retain control of the wall and all the West Bank land behind it, until such time as negotiations are complete.
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Hilarious. With no right of return mentioned, the Palestinians would reject it out of hand. And say it's a declaration of war against them.
 
theprestige said:
These are all privileges that the conqueror enjoys with respect to the conquered. The European can apologize to the Aboriginal for delivering savage beatdowns after he has successfully done so. This goes straight to the heart of WildCat's point: that the strongest armies make the strongest claims to possession.


I wonder what you think "fascism" actually means.


I certainly don't. If their fighting had won them a stronger claim to possession than the claim of the British Empire, so much the better. But that's not the way history played out, and that's not who ended up in the superior position of being able to apologize to the losers for being the winners.


As well they should, because that's what it was. Doesn't change the fact that the invaders won, though, or the fact that the Aboriginals are now reduced to petitioning their conquerors as favors things which were once theirs by birthright.

Which is the point: stronger armies make stronger claims.
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please....the old repeated attempt to equate palestinians with Aboriginal australians is a joke. Get back to me when Israel actually even thinks about applying the same principles to palestinians as australia does with Aboriginals. Wildcat does this aboriginal side topic roughly monthly....the answers never apparently sink in.

maybe australia should have left a bit of australia that we still control but don't call australia and drove the majority of the aboriginals into it. We could then require the ones that stayed to be :"sort of australians" with a compulsory requirement that the be identified as being in this second class of citizenship.

some time ago Australia progressed from calling itself the home of white australians to the home of Australians. Eventually Israel is going to progress from calling itself the home of Jewish Israelis to the home of Israelis. Its just a process of growing up........we just have to listen to the apologists for a little longer.
 
mortimer said:
Hilarious. With no right of return mentioned, the Palestinians would reject it out of hand. And say it's a declaration of war against them.
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the return of refugees would be part of the final negotiations. meanwhile, the Palestinians would have 90% of the West Bank, while Israel would still have Jerusalem and its Jerusalem-area settlements.

plus Israel would have its commitment to non-violence from the Palestinians.

a temporary solution that has real meaning, is worth it..in my opinion.
 
So nobody actually dealt with my elephant in the room.

This is your task for the day: provide a blueprint for peaceful coexistence with a Nazi-inspired death-cult. Go.
 
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Virus said:
But the elephant in the room is that Palestinians are split between patient and impatient jihad. Both Hamas and the "moderate" Fatah promote suicide martyrdom, Nazi-style conspiracies and view the destruction of Israel as a religious duty. Behind that lies the ancient and entrenched culture of corruption and personal power-jockeying that makes them unable to govern themselves, let alone come to an agreement on something.

1967 borders, 1948 borders, doesn't matter. Palestinians view the whole thing as occupied territory and are doing pretty well out of stealing foreign aid and being the center of useful-idiot attention so there's no hurry.
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Again with the whining. That is the way JEWS chose to live. They get no sympathy for getting exactly what they wanted.

No one forced the Jews to go there. No one forced the Jews to steal the land. No one is forcing the Jews to keep the land.

Screw the nancy Schnorrers.
 
Thunder said:
then, with the Palestinians in control of 90% of the West Bank, Israel and the Palestinians will negotiate on the final status of Jerusalem, the Old City, and the refugees. However, if negotiations fail...or reach a stumbling block, Israel shall retain control of the wall and all the West Bank land behind it, until such time as negotiations are complete.
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And he would then add, If they do not agree the despotic tyranny over them West Bank will continue.
 
a_unique_person said:
Fascism.
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Whatever you say, dude. I'm still not sure you know what "fascism" actually means. But okay, you have some special personal definition of fascism. That's your prerogative.

It still doesn't address the point that historically, actually, and factually, stronger armies make stronger claims to possession.

Kaddafy doesn't possess Tripoli because the Libyan rebels are insufficiently fascist*. He possesses Tripoli because the rebels are insufficiently strong to take possession of it themselves.















*Then again, maybe he does. Maybe the Allies won World War II by being more fascist than Nazi Germany. Just a thought.
 
Virus said:
So nobody actually dealt with my elephant in the room.

This is your task for the day: provide a blueprint for peaceful coexistence with a Nazi-inspired death-cult. Go.
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Kill the zionists. They are all thieves and murderers anyway.
 
mortimer said:
What other western democracies have been surrounded and outnumbered by those who want every one of their Jewish citizens dead?
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Jordan wants Israel dead?

Egypt wants Israel dead?

My friend this is 2011...not 1971.



....please, try again.
 
Thunder said:
the return of refugees would be part of the final negotiations. meanwhile, the Palestinians would have 90% of the West Bank, while Israel would still have Jerusalem and its Jerusalem-area settlements.

plus Israel would have its commitment to non-violence from the Palestinians.

a temporary solution that has real meaning, is worth it..in my opinion.
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Israel is never going to give the Palestinians what they want in regards to the right of return, so final negotiations will fail. Meanwhile, Israel has given the Palestinians everything else they want. So where does that get either side to?

Not to mention, the Palestinians can't seem to manage to not attack Israel, even when their terrorist overlords tell them not to. I would put very little (read:none) stock into any Palestinian ceasefire pledge.
 
The Fool said:
please....the old repeated attempt to equate palestinians with Aboriginal australians is a joke. Get back to me when Israel actually even thinks about applying the same principles to palestinians as australia does with Aboriginals.
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Israel never treated the Palestinians anything close to what Australia did... I don't think they ever counted Arabs as part of the wild fauna for census purposes for example. And there's certainly no talk of giving Aborigines their own state, is there?
 
WildCat said:
Israel never treated the Palestinians anything close to what Australia did... I don't think they ever counted Arabs as part of the wild fauna for census purposes for example. And there's certainly no talk of giving Aborigines their own state, is there?
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how many hundreds of thousands of native Australians have been exiled by the white government?
 
Virus said:
So nobody actually dealt with my elephant in the room.

This is your task for the day: provide a blueprint for peaceful coexistence with a Nazi-inspired death-cult. Go.
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and you have not responded to my request to name one of the parliaments that the british left behind in the middle east (as you claim).

This is your task for the day: name one of the parliaments. Go.
 
mortimer said:
Israel is never going to give the Palestinians what they want in regards to the right of return, so final negotiations will fail.
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I am confident the Palestinians will accept a token number of returning refugees to Israel, say 100,000..and compensation for the rest.

no serious Palestinian politician or otherwise, expects millions of Palestinians to move to Israel, let alone hundreds of thousands.
 
Thunder said:
I am confident the Palestinians will accept a token number of returning refugees to Israel, say 100,000..and compensation for the rest.

no serious Palestinian politician or otherwise, expects millions of Palestinians to move to Israel, let alone hundreds of thousands.
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I completely disagree. It's all part of Arafat's staged plan.

Why do you think a senior aide to Abbas called today's address a "declaration of war"? Because it didn't mention right of return.
 
mortimer said:
Israel is never going to give the Palestinians what they want in regards to the right of return, so final negotiations will fail. Meanwhile, Israel has given the Palestinians everything else they want.
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Again with the pretend ignorance. Israel has given Palestinians nothing of interest.

If Jews had declared their Israel in NYC Americans would have slaughtered them all. Should Palestinians have done any less?
 
Thunder said:
I am confident the Palestinians will accept a token number of returning refugees to Israel, say 100,000..and compensation for the rest.

no serious Palestinian politician or otherwise, expects millions of Palestinians to move to Israel, let alone hundreds of thousands.
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No Palestinian politician represents the refugees. It does not matter in the least what the politicians agree to. It does not bind the refugees in any manner under any concept of law or custom.
 
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