General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[WildCat]

If you are saying that the aboriginals are treated disgracefully here, I'd have to agree. I don't say that we won, therefore they can eat ****.

Of course you won. You're living on land you took from them, using your superior army. You certainly didn't ask for it nicely. In fact, it was claimed without any consultation whatsoever with the people already living there.

Is Australia a fascist state?

 

[Matt Giwer]

We are ready to negotiate without preconditions

Bibi to Congress: Israel Ready for Compromise, But Jerusalem Will Not Be Divided

except for Israel's preconditions.

No to Jerusalem.
No to refugees.
No to borders.

Three NOs. Three preconditions. Nothing to negotiate.

No plan.
No peace.
No Mensch.

​

Perhaps also his last brave thing.

 

[Matt Giwer]

all 750,000 Arab refugees "chose war" when they fled or were expelled by Zionist forces in 1948?
therefore NONE of them have any right to return or get compensated for lost property?
wow. Stalin & Goering would be proud of such an attitude.

It is not a secret the zionists originally envisioned being the masters of Palestine with the natives as a slave population. It is hardly surprising to find they used existing models such as Ottoman rule.

The Palestinians were to be hewers of wood and carriers of water.

​

But not so cute.

 

[Matt Giwer]

every single peace negotiation has come up with giving the Palestinians at least 90% of the West Bank. why did Bibi fail to spell out any specifics whatsoever.?[/center]

Who is dumb enough to think Israel was ever seriously considering giving up any land at all? You make a major mistake. Read the Israeli proposals which delineate your claim of 90% and see for yourself. Of course you are smart enough to know it has never been put in writing so why are you not demonstrating that intelligence and recognizing there has never been such an offer?

would it have hurt him THAT much to say something like: "we will be willing to give the Palestinians at least 90% of the West Bank, and perhaps more with mutually agreed-upon land swaps??​

The continuation of any government in Israel depends upon never giving up an inch. Yes, it would have hurt. His coalition would fall apart.

BTW: Keep in mind the old "we need to hold elections" ploy. When all else fails have a no confidence vote, call elections and plead inability to do anything for another year while the "new" government formulates a negotiating position.

I mean, the Hafrada Wall takes in less that 10% of the West Bank, so even if he said "the Hafrada Wall shall become Israel's new border", he would still be offering the Arabs 91.5% of the West Bank.

and as far as keeping a think corrodor along the Jordanian border, couldn't he have offered something in return?

why is he soo afraid of details?​

What do you think Israel can offer for what is inside the Apartheid wall? Are you under the illusion that Israel can offer anything of equal value to exchange? All of the Negev including Eilat might get their attention.​

 

[Matt Giwer]

Because this wasn't a negotiation, it was a conversation with an ally and an address in front of Congress.

Nonsense! His three NOs were very specific. There are specifics or there are not. There were specific NOs. Therefore the absence of specifics means there are none. There never have been. Why should he be any different?

 

[Matt Giwer]

Zionists ARE Fascists

That is a Facist philosophy.

Jabotinsky was an open admirer of the Mussolini. The revisionist movement took over the zionist movement in the 1920s. That is why the revisionist movement down to today's Likud has always been fascist.

You folks pretend such ignorance I often feel like I am instructing school children. Yet all I am doing is repeating what you already know.

 

[a_unique_person]

Of course you won. You're living on land you took from them, using your superior army. You certainly didn't ask for it nicely. In fact, it was claimed without any consultation whatsoever with the people already living there.

Is Australia a fascist state?

Australia has made a formal apology to the aboriginals, although that took hundreds of years. It has created land rights, although vested interests and racists have fought that tooth and nail, and degraded them to the point that many legitimate claims were denied. For hundreds of years Aborginals were denied even citizenship. In that sense, Australia was a fascist state. Not so much now, but the racism and denial that we had anything to with their current lot in life is still there, and still very strong.

I would also note the Aboriginals fought back violently for something like one hundred years, IIRC. I can't say I blame them. Many of them still refer to Australia day, the day the 'first fleet' landed in Australia, as Invasion Day.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Of course you won. You're living on land you took from them, using your superior army. You certainly didn't ask for it nicely. In fact, it was claimed without any consultation whatsoever with the people already living there.

Is Australia a fascist state?

Israel is committing genocide. Well said.

 

[Matt Giwer]

That's not how it works in real life on Planet Earth, among animals or humans.

Speaking of animals and humans ...

​

 

[Thunder]

Because this wasn't a negotiation, it was a conversation with an ally and an address in front of Congress.

wrong again.

the negotiations at Taba and the ones held between Olmert and the Palestinians, all agreed to giving the Palestinians AT LEAST 90% of the West Bank.

 

[Thunder]

As to the legitimacy of land conquered through war, its a fact the United Nations and much of the world has told Israel that their territorial conquests in the 1948 War are acceptable and they recognize those conquered lands as part of Israel. But that's it!!

Any more land being annexed by Israel has to be through negotiations with the enemy party and through mutually-agreed upon boundaries and land-exchanges.

Every nation has their period of accepted territorial conquest. Israel's was in 1948.

 

[Matt Giwer]

It is only 10% of the West Bank and other jewish lies

​

Note the impeccably jewish and israeli credentials on this map.

Notice the big green patch on the right is the Jordan valley that is referred as though it is just a sliver of land.

Remember all the holodile tears over Israel's borders were only 12 miles at its narrowest point in 1967? Remember how that justifies annexing all the dark green land? Notice how, after annexation, the width at the narrowest point will be 12 miles plus 300 feet.

Israeli Jews are incredibly stupid in thinking 300 feet will make a difference. Can anyone imagine Jews being so stupid? Yet they really are this stupid because this is what they really and truly believe.

 

[Virus]

But the elephant in the room is that Palestinians are split between patient and impatient jihad. Both Hamas and the "moderate" Fatah promote suicide martyrdom, Nazi-style conspiracies and view the destruction of Israel as a religious duty. Behind that lies the ancient and entrenched culture of corruption and personal power-jockeying that makes them unable to govern themselves, let alone come to an agreement on something.

1967 borders, 1948 borders, doesn't matter. Palestinians view the whole thing as occupied territory and are doing pretty well out of stealing foreign aid and being the center of useful-idiot attention so there's no hurry.

 

[The Fool]

But the elephant in the room is that Palestinians are split between patient and impatient jihad. Both Hamas and the "moderate" Fatah promote suicide martyrdom, Nazi-style conspiracies and view the destruction of Israel as a religious duty. Behind that lies the ancient and entrenched culture of corruption and personal power-jockeying that makes them unable to govern themselves, let alone come to an agreement on something.

1967 borders, 1948 borders, doesn't matter. Palestinians view the whole thing as occupied territory and are doing pretty well out of stealing foreign aid and being the center of useful-idiot attention so there's no hurry.

to be honest, your take on history is very elastic....still waiting on an example of the parliaments you believ britain left behind when they left the middle east.

 

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Virus
1967 borders, 1948 borders, doesn't matter. Palestinians view the whole thing as occupied territory and are doing pretty well out of stealing foreign aid and being the center of useful-idiot attention so there's no hurry.

 

[mortimer]

wrong again.

the negotiations at Taba and the ones held between Olmert and the Palestinians, all agreed to giving the Palestinians AT LEAST 90% of the West Bank.

This is a complete non-sequitur. You're complaining that Bibi hasn't given details at negotiations that have never happened.

Details of negotiations are provided at the negotiating table, not to an address to a third-party's Congress.

Of course, the Palestinians have steadfastly refused to negotiate.

 

[Thunder]

This is a complete non-sequitur. You're complaining that Bibi hasn't given details at negotiations that have never happened.

Details of negotiations are provided at the negotiating table, not to an address to a third-party's Congress.

I'm sure Bibi is glad to know he has a supporter at JREF, who will go to great lengths to make excuses for his inherent inability to provide substance.

wanna know what Bibi SHOULD have said today?

he should have offered the Palestinians this: Israel will fully withdraw to the Seperation Wall, in exchange for a Palestinian declaration that they totally abandon the use of force against Israel to seek redress for claims dealing with the 1948, 1967, and 1973 wars...and shall rely solely on negotiations from here forward. This temporary border will me monitored and patrolled by a United Nations or other international peacekeeping force until final negotiations are complete, leading to the declaration of the independent state of Palestine.

then, with the Palestinians in control of 90% of the West Bank, Israel and the Palestinians will negotiate on the final status of Jerusalem, the Old City, and the refugees. However, if negotiations fail...or reach a stumbling block, Israel shall retain control of the wall and all the West Bank land behind it, until such time as negotiations are complete.

 

[theprestige]

Australia has made a formal apology to the aboriginals, although that took hundreds of years. It has created land rights, although vested interests and racists have fought that tooth and nail, and degraded them to the point that many legitimate claims were denied. For hundreds of years Aborginals were denied even citizenship.

These are all privileges that the conqueror enjoys with respect to the conquered. The European can apologize to the Aboriginal for delivering savage beatdowns after he has successfully done so. This goes straight to the heart of WildCat's point: that the strongest armies make the strongest claims to possession.

In that sense, Australia was a fascist state. Not so much now, but the racism and denial that we had anything to with their current lot in life is still there, and still very strong.

I wonder what you think "fascism" actually means.

I would also note the Aboriginals fought back violently for something like one hundred years, IIRC. I can't say I blame them.

I certainly don't. If their fighting had won them a stronger claim to possession than the claim of the British Empire, so much the better. But that's not the way history played out, and that's not who ended up in the superior position of being able to apologize to the losers for being the winners.

Many of them still refer to Australia day, the day the 'first fleet' landed in Australia, as Invasion Day.

As well they should, because that's what it was. Doesn't change the fact that the invaders won, though, or the fact that the Aboriginals are now reduced to petitioning their conquerors as favors things which were once theirs by birthright.

Which is the point: stronger armies make stronger claims.

 

[a_unique_person]

Fascism.

 

[Thunder]

Fascism.

only Fascists follow the philosophy of "to the victor goes the spoils"?

never heard of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?