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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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America had the Klan waiting for them

I have no idea where you got your ideas, American education isn't that bad yet, about the Klan but the only religion that got any serious problems from them were the Catholics. Even a jewish leaflet on the subject can contain all of the anti-jewish statements of the Klan.
 
:p:p:p:p:p:p

seriously?

the USA in 1946 was bastion of anti-Semitic hatred and discrimination?

there is one, and only one reason why the Jews of Europe went to Israel and not the USA, and that is the very discriminatory nationality quotas that were set up in 1926 and were not finally overturned until 1968.

And the nationalities involved were eastern European nations. It had nothing to do with religion.
 
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One more point

...America was still under Jim Crow at the time...

In addition to the Jim Crow laws having nothing to do with Jews, Blacks in America would have exchanged them for the Nuremberg Laws in a New York minute. So much for all the whining about the Nuremberg laws. You people certainly have some strange ideas about America.
 
many right-wing Zionists throughout the world will deny this, you know.

but it should also be stated that the British & French not only promised the people of Palestine, but indeed all the peoples of the Middle East then under Allied occupation, of a democratic state. clearly, this promise was utterly broken.

This is incorrect Thunder. The British Empire created parliaments for the Arabs and turned them over when they left. The Arabs proceeded to turn them into rubber-stamps and money/favor networks. In Egypt, Syria and Iraq conspirators overthrew it and implemented Stalinist states. Old habits die hard.
 
This is incorrect Thunder. The British Empire created parliaments for the Arabs and turned them over when they left. The Arabs proceeded to turn them into rubber-stamps and money/favor networks. In Egypt, Syria and Iraq conspirators overthrew it and implemented Stalinist states. Old habits die hard.

"The Arabs" again. Why are the general population to blame for conspirators overthrowing them? Who were these conspirators in Iraq?
 
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The Nazi-allied Rashid Ali. Then the others after him.
 
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This is incorrect Thunder. The British Empire created parliaments for the Arabs and turned them over when they left. The Arabs proceeded to turn them into rubber-stamps and money/favor networks. In Egypt, Syria and Iraq conspirators overthrew it and implemented Stalinist states. Old habits die hard.

The Brits did set up copies of their system of king and parliament. They were supposed to work as they did in Britain. Americans considered it silly.

On the other hand the French established the first democracy and now oldest democracy in the middle east in Lebanon in 1943. Note it is five years older than the one in Israel and eleven years older than the advent of people stupid enough to believe the claim Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.
 
While I think the formation of Israel was a mistake, I wouldn't call it theft either. That said, I take issue with the idea that it was britains land to give in the first place. And the actual method by which the first Israeli settlers claimed the land from the British occupiers didn't exactly entail a friendly handover by (what was left of) the British empire.
The back-dealings of the British with Arab leaders in what was deemed 'oil diplomacy' wasn't friendly either. Neither was the handover of British arms and strongholds to the Arabs within the Palestine mandate as the British high-tailed it out of another failed expedition in the ME, friendly either. Neither was pretty much every effort by the British government outside that of the Balfour declaration in their attempts to prevent the formation of Israel.

I do find it comical though that there is so much emphasis put on Israel, judgin by the size, and the actual connection to the land in question, by the people in question. This cannot be said by other countries by those lovely post-colonialist powers. But hey, no real rules of law back then eh? Oh wait...

Outside of Germany, the Jewish communities in europe would have been fine had they stayed, as shown by the remaining communities in europe today.
Retrospective reasoning is usually infallible. That is, if you bothered to investigate about the number of post-war pogroms that occurred after the war supposedly ended, ie Poland and several x-Soviet satellite countries.

The premise of the reason Israel was formed in the first place has been proven to be true time and time again.
 
You can't do enough for some people

That's just what Jesus said.*

"In a world which is demonstrably on the side of the Palestinians and Arabs - where Israel stands virtually alone - the United States has a special role to play,"said the AIPAC director. "When the United States is even-handed, Israel is automatically at a disadvantage, tilting the diplomatic playing field overwhelmingly toward the Palestinians and Arabs."

The joke in this is the US has never been seen as even-handed by any observer. It is a public and diplomatic fiction that the US is attempts to be even-handed or in the parlance, an honest broker (of peace). The only public disclosure on Camp David describes the US as Israel's lawyer and that from a US negotiator.

The US does have an interest in the middle east and in peace. Even the 9/11 commission report identified the Palestinian issue as a cause of 9/11 although only people who hate Jews will mention it so the izziehugger whine. The US also has a political interest in zionism going back to a 1923 congressional resolution endorsing the Balfour Declaration. However that does not mean the interests of the US and Israel are the same. In fact they never were the same.

The izziehugger party line is the interests of the two countries are identical. This is a political fiction fostered to deflect the obvious criticism of Americans putting the interests of Israel ahead of the interests of the US. That is called disloyalty.

Clearly the US has no national interest in Israel's squattertowns nor in Jerusalem being its capital. There are many other Likud and Israeli interests which are not of interest or contrary to US interests such as peace. Israel getting Jerusalem does not result in peace. An international city as in the UN resolution at least keeps the peace as long as Israel does not attack -- but if they intend to, say so now.

The US has an interest in keeping out the refugees as should they return their government will own several hundred nuclear weapons as well as the third largest stockpile of chemical weapons and the largest stockpile of fresh biological weapons in the world.

There are several other obvious similarities and divergences which I should not have to spell out to the knowledgeable participants here.

However Americans who support Israeli interests over American interests are of course being disloyal to America. Further those who not only support Israel but also support the ruling party in Israel are subordinating US interests to Israeli party politics. This is not in question when it comes to the congressional support of the Likud party thus clearly subordinating US interests to israeli partisan politics.

For example when England decided to take back the Falkland Islands, its sovereign territory, from Argentina the US did not even wish England good luck. When Israel went on its murderous rampage in Gaza the US defended Israel's slaughter. Quite a difference. Yet US interests were clearly with Britain against the Argentine dictatorship. Now imagine US foreign policy were designed to support Britain's Labor Party. It is a far cry from US support of Likud politics.

===
*Life of Brian, ex-leper complaining about being cured.
 
Have you read the new history book, Winston?

At times I think I know where Orwell got some of his inspiration.

The back-dealings of the British with Arab leaders in what was deemed 'oil diplomacy' wasn't friendly either. Neither was the handover of British arms and strongholds to the Arabs within the Palestine mandate as the British high-tailed it out of another failed expedition in the ME, friendly either. Neither was pretty much every effort by the British government outside that of the Balfour declaration in their attempts to prevent the formation of Israel.

Lets see. It was wrong to hand over facilities to the majority of the country.

To do the right thing they should have turned the materiel over to the terrorists who bombed the King David Hotel, the Irgun, Stern Gang and other terrorist organizations who had been murdering Palestinians and British since the 1920s.

But lets ignore all of that. The mandate under which Britain operated was to prepare the Palestinians not European immigrants for self rule. According to zionist history they were supposed to subvert the Palestinians in favor of the Europeans.

But if one rewrites history and leaves out the pertinent details one can make the facts sound like they support the rewriters.

I do find it comical though that there is so much emphasis put on Israel, judgin by the size, and the actual connection to the land in question, by the people in question. This cannot be said by other countries by those lovely post-colonialist powers. But hey, no real rules of law back then eh? Oh wait...

Europeans have no connection with the land but if one pretends the fictional Old Testament is a land deed and plays upon Sunday School nonsense one can pretend a tailor from a shtetl in Poland has always longed to farm the land in Palestine. With the right mood music it might be possible to suppress the giggles.

As an American the idea of colonies has always been anathema and by that I assume anyone reading this knows exactly what colonialism means.

The issue always come back to the simple fact that Israel's absentee owner laws prove beyond a reasonable doubt, pure black letter law, that Jews stole the land. That is the origin of the problem. Remedying that is the only solution to the problem. Thieves will never be allowed quiet possession of stolen property.

Retrospective reasoning is usually infallible. That is, if you bothered to investigate about the number of post-war pogroms that occurred after the war supposedly ended, ie Poland and several x-Soviet satellite countries.

The premise of the reason Israel was formed in the first place has been proven to be true time and time again.

The premise was succinctly stated by Herzl, the Austrian reporter who founded Zionism. Jews can never assimilate into Christian Europe. This is his fundamental premise which is used as the basis for his lectures promoting Zionism. It was adopted at the first Zionist convention in Zurich. Note carefully it is religious only. The jewish "people" had not been invented yet.

Forty years later this same premise was adopted by the NSDAP aka Nazis. One does not need a degree in rocket surgery to understand this is the connection that lead to the close cooperation between the Zionists and the Nazis.

And it was that cooperation that leads everyone who is familiar with the real history of zionism, not the fanciful revision Jews declare is the only truth, to a great frustration in being unable to properly express the hypocrisy of the sham use of Nazis as a bugaboo.

So lets get back to the first part of my response to this post. The Brits were not going to leave weapons and facilities in the hands of terrorists and Nazi collaborators. Sure they had a falling out in 1941 but they still worked together to some extent during the war as in the Kastner case offering war materiel for Jews. Fine for Jews but it gets Brits killed. And Brits were bad people for not helping Jews over Palestinians?

Yes, Winston, it is important to read the new history book.
 
The back-dealings of the British with Arab leaders in what was deemed 'oil diplomacy' wasn't friendly either. Neither was the handover of British arms and strongholds to the Arabs within the Palestine mandate as the British high-tailed it out of another failed expedition in the ME, friendly either. Neither was pretty much every effort by the British government outside that of the Balfour declaration in their attempts to prevent the formation of Israel.

I do find it comical though that there is so much emphasis put on Israel, judgin by the size, and the actual connection to the land in question, by the people in question. This cannot be said by other countries by those lovely post-colonialist powers. But hey, no real rules of law back then eh? Oh wait...


Retrospective reasoning is usually infallible. That is, if you bothered to investigate about the number of post-war pogroms that occurred after the war supposedly ended, ie Poland and several x-Soviet satellite countries.

The premise of the reason Israel was formed in the first place has been proven to be true time and time again.

Are you saying the people who lived there at the time, and live there now, apart from those expelled, have no connection with the land? WTF does size have to do with it?
 
Are you saying the people who lived there at the time, and live there now, apart from those expelled, have no connection with the land? WTF does size have to do with it?
They forfeited that right when they chose war because they couldn't bear the thought of living peacefully with Jews.
 
Why is it that the Palestinians get to collaborate with the Nazis, start a war, then demand reparations after they lose?
 
sad to read that from someone from the USA.......
Not sad at all. If some white supremacist group wages war against the US because we don't deport all non-whites, and flee to another country when they lose, I won't shed a tear for their lost property they left behind.
 
Why is it that the Palestinians get to collaborate with the Nazis, start a war, then demand reparations after they lose?
Remember when the international left stood up against racism in S. Africa? Now their darlings are anti-semitic genocidal asshats trying to destroy the country in the middle east with the strongest democracy and human rights record.

It's like some kind of bizarro world.
 
Are you saying the people who lived there at the time, and live there now, apart from those expelled, have no connection with the land? WTF does size have to do with it?
Again no, and again, never eluded to the idea.

Size has plenty to do with it, perhaps you can figure this out on your own...but I'm not holding my breath.
 
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