Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Fuji]

Ok, let's talk it out. First, what is the claim that you feel is unsupported?

Well, the whole "Knox and Sollecito are innocent" claim is my main problem. But I would be willing to examine any sub-claim.

That it is common for burglars to use the toilets during a burglary and not flush?

It obviously happens, but you seem to dispute whether it is "common" or not. Do I have that right?

You got it right, partially. My (so far implied) assertion is that, in and of itself, if an experienced criminal investigator were called upon to examine the evidence of an unflushed turd in a bowl at a purported burglary, they would note it as significant. That is all. I do not claim, in and of itself, it is sufficient evidence to convict the pair.

And yes, Dirty Work is a fantastic movie isn't it? I hope that's something we can all agree on.

Most certainly, though I'm even more partial to Beer League.

 

[christianahannah]

Well, you could also use Guede testamony in his own trial where he claims he made a date and stole a kiss on 31 Oct2007. That might indicate he had a desire for Meredith.

Along with other testimony he gave about having a kiss with Meredith at the club which was deemed not credible by the court (Micheli). In fact, so was the testimony you cite above (not deemed credible by the court), as was most of his testimony.

In his exchanges with the boys downstairs, he asked not about Meredith and they did not indicate he was interested in her in the slightest.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Well, the whole "Knox and Sollecito are innocent" claim is my main problem. But I would be willing to examine any sub-claim.



You got it right, partially. My (so far implied) assertion is that, in and of itself, if an experienced criminal investigator were called upon to examine the evidence of an unflushed turd in a bowl at a purported burglary, they would note it as significant. That is all. I do not claim, in and of itself, it is sufficient evidence to convict the pair.



Most certainly, though I'm even more partial to Beer League.

Ya the subclaim. Forgive my being dense, but I thought you were claiming that an experienced investigator wouldn't note the unflushed turd as significant since you don't think it's common in burglaries.

Edit: I think main question is, "Whether it is common for burglars to leave their unflushed feces in the toilet?". And basically, we are arguing over what would qualify as "common". So, you need to let me know what kind of evidence you would accept that would show this being that "common" is a subjective term.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

luminol false positives

Here is a pdf file on luminol and a commercial version called hemaglow that gives some luminol false positives. Drano gives a positive result. Fantastic, babo cleanser, Fast Orange and The Works give weak positives.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Well, the whole "Knox and Sollecito are innocent" claim is my main problem. But I would be willing to examine any sub-claim.

Sweet, just sweet

What about:

Meredith was attacked shortly after entering house, what is supported by the phone records, autopsy results, her clothing, washing machine contents, and Guede's unflushed dropping.

Guede thrown the rock and climbed in - just like that mysterious someone in the lawyers' office.

The traces in Meredith's room show that Guede raped and killed her alone in a swift attack.

The kitchen knife is not the murder weapon.

Lack of Amanda's and Raffaele's traces in Meredith's room can't be explained in the context of their guilt.

Broken chain of custody for the bra clasp and the circumstances of it's retrieval invalidate it's evidential force. So does the fact that it desintegrated and can't be retested.

Curatolo is lying or completely confused and mistaken.

So is Quintavalle (remember him?).

etc.

Pick something for starters.

but for now: good night

 

[Fuji]

Sweet, just sweet

What about:

Meredith was attacked shortly after entering house, what is supported by the phone records, autopsy results, her clothing, washing machine contents, and Guede's unflushed dropping.

I think that's unlikely, but not improbable.

Guede thrown the rock and climbed in - just like that mysterious someone in the lawyers' office.

I see no evidence that Guede broke in, nor do I discern any through inference from reported court findings.

The traces in Meredith's room show that Guede raped and killed her alone in a swift attack.

He didn't break in alone. That has already been established.

The kitchen knife is not the murder weapon.

Possible. I personally suspect, though I would not support, that the court might grant Knox and Sollecito a reduction in sentence if the knife were excluded as evidence.

Lack of Amanda's and Raffaele's traces in Meredith's room can't be explained in the context of their guilt.

Sure it can. The two obvious objections are: 1) it wasn't left behind, and 2) even if it was left behind, it wasn't detected. There are a whole host of sub-claims for Knox apologists to delineate here, should they choose.

Broken chain of custody for the bra clasp and the circumstances of it's retrieval invalidate it's evidential force. So does the fact that it desintegrated and can't be retested.

I will concede that it would have been optimal if the clasp had been collected earlier, and if it were better preserved. No argument here.

That said, I am not someone who draws a lot of significance from the genetic results, as a general manner of speaking.

Curatolo is lying or completely confused and mistaken.

Possible in either case. Curatolo is of no import to me.

So is Quintavalle (remember him?).

Again, don't care. (Not to be taken as an implication that those who find the testimonies of Qunitavalle & Curatolo to be significant are necessarily mistaken.)

etc.

Pick something for starters.

but for now: good night

Ciao.

 

[Justinian2]

Well, the whole "Knox and Sollecito are innocent" claim is my main problem.

True.

 

[RandyN]

I had to do a logical doubletake on this one.

This is an extremely bungled attempted assertion of an instance of the subset of the argument from evidence, commonly known as "absence of evidence".

However, the argument that I am actually using could be considerably more accurately summarized as "evidence of absence":

"In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence."

I have to agree with Fuji on this point.

Its exactly because there is zero evidence of AK or RS in the murder room that one can absolutely state that they were absent or never there. The absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

 

[RandyN]

Along with other testimony he gave about having a kiss with Meredith at the club which was deemed not credible by the court (Micheli). In fact, so was the testimony you cite above (not deemed credible by the court), as was most of his testimony.

In his exchanges with the boys downstairs, he asked not about Meredith and they did not indicate he was interested in her in the slightest.

Well, I actually I agree with you that anything RG has ever said is not credible. Even the people who raised him called him a compulsive liar.

In fact this line of reasoning is irrelevant because Rudys feelings or interest in either girl could never explain why he decided to eventually murder Meredith.


I pretty much am sticking with the robbery gone wrong turned murder sexual assault that most closely fits the physical evidence. I’m about 52% certain that's what happened.

If guilters want to sway me then I need to see a stronger motive.

Heck, I need to see a reason for a smoked up duo to even poke their noses outside after 8:45 on a cold November night. They had food, sex , drugs, and rock and roll....why go out?

 

[RandyN]

Well sure....I finally get caught up and everyone has gone to bed.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Of course with your oft stated belief in superiority of google and library card use to formal academic training (shades of TOD), surely you know that cocaine use is listed as just one of several possible causes of nose bleeds.
Just sayin'

Or maybe the home team did not want that player to be exposed on their less than level playing field here

Please spare us the also selectively used documentation whine

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/nosebleeds/article_em.htm#Nosebleeds Causes

Edited by jhunter1163: 

Edited for Rule 11.

 

[Draca]

Hi shuttlt. Yes, I remember you from the "old days" (I was just watching back then).

I agree. In fact, I'll go further than you and publicly ask "Charlie Wilkes" to release into the public domain all the pictures he has of the ground and wall underneath Filomena's window. Unless the Knox family didn't provide these photos to him, which of course only suggests other possible inquiries, such as: "Why not?""

The police failed to take documenting photos. They would have been given to Ron Hendry to use in his breakin analysis if they existed. Do you find it acceptable, giving that Mignini himself recently said the police immediately suspected a staged breakin, that they didn't document this suspicion with photographic evidence? Pretty low standard of proof IMO.

 

[christianahannah]

The police failed to take documenting photos. They would have been given to Ron Hendry to use in his breakin analysis if they existed. Do you find it acceptable, giving that Mignini himself recently said the police immediately suspected a staged breakin, that they didn't document this suspicion with photographic evidence? Pretty low standard of proof IMO.

There were photos to document what the conditions were in the room and at least one photo of the outside documenting the wall (photo 11). If there is one of the outside I would suspect there were more taken.

There were also several taken of the inside of Filomena's room, photos 47-54, 65, 66. Whether these photos persuaded the police of staging after they were taken and analyzed or they were taken because the police suspected staging from the beginning, I am not certain.

Do you know the source for Mignini stating that staging was suspected from the beginning?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

There were photos to document what the conditions were in the room and at least one photo of the outside documenting the wall (photo 11). If there is one of the outside I would suspect there were more taken.

There were also several taken of the inside of Filomena's room, photos 47-54, 65, 66. Whether these photos persuaded the police of staging after they were taken and analyzed or they were taken because the police suspected staging from the beginning, I am not certain.

Do you know the source for Mignini stating that staging was suspected from the beginning?

Mignini discusses the alleged staging in his recent interview with CNN.

 

[RandyN]

There were photos to document what the conditions were in the room and at least one photo of the outside documenting the wall (photo 11). If there is one of the outside I would suspect there were more taken.

There were also several taken of the inside of Filomena's room, photos 47-54, 65, 66. Whether these photos persuaded the police of staging after they were taken and analyzed or they were taken because the police suspected staging from the beginning, I am not certain.

Do you know the source for Mignini stating that staging was suspected from the beginning?

Sorry but this comes from Darkness Descending ...they claim the outer shutters were open only slightly...about 8 inches or so and so the investigating officer (Chiacchhiera) felt it would be impossible to throw a large rock between this narrow gap. What he failed to consider was that the wind or RG could have repositioned the shutters during the previous night. This is where they first started down the path to a "staged" break-in.

 

[Dan O.]

You forgot a prerequisite - "0) Guede stands on the ground underneath Filomena's room".

Such a stance is not a prerequisite to reaching the top of the lower window when one can traverse laterally from the porch to the top bar of the lower window grate. This had been posted previously.

 

[RandyN]

This from Fuji from somewhere else...

"Fuji

Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:01 pm

Posts: 135

Location: Ireland

Highscores: 5
Posted: Mon May 23, 2011 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: The Faked Break-In


Earthling wrote:
Is there anyone else in the known universe who had the motive to create a faked break-in at the cottage on November 1st, 2007, except the alibi-less Amanda Knox????


Fuji reply...

"No. "


No one staged a break-in. Rudy Guede threw a large rock thru Filomenas window. What’s so hard to understand about that?

I’m asking you here Fuji because they don’t allow any opposing thought at the site this is from.

So what is so hard to understand? Rudy threw a large rock at a window and he broke it... every known fact points to that conclusion.

Don’t say there are better windows...I often hear that one and then I hear the patio door was easier...not true...A patio door is quite strong and not easily broken. A rock the size Rudy used could easily bounce off a reinforced glass patio door.

SO why go with the unproven "staged" burglary?

 

[Draca]

There were photos to document what the conditions were in the room and at least one photo of the outside documenting the wall (photo 11). If there is one of the outside I would suspect there were more taken.

There were also several taken of the inside of Filomena's room, photos 47-54, 65, 66. Whether these photos persuaded the police of staging after they were taken and analyzed or they were taken because the police suspected staging from the beginning, I am not certain.

Do you know the source for Mignini stating that staging was suspected from the beginning?

I don't know of other photos that were taken. There were photos of the inside of the room, but even there where are the close up photos of glass ON TOP of items as they claim?

Mignini states himself that they immediately suspected a staged breakin. If they thought that straight away shouldn't it have been a priority to document those aspects that would show staging?

Mignini CNN interview pg1
And the other thing which struck us, which was of immediate interest, I said this on other occasions and I repeat it because I’ve said it also at the first trial, was the break-in. And it appeared immediately – the climbing, the simulation of climbing, with a stone thrown through the window, through two shutters that were there, that left open quite a narrow space, rather limited room between them – immediately that appeared to us to be a simulation.

 

[Justinian2]

Mignini discusses the alleged staging in his recent interview with CNN.

Mignini's last idea was that because it was staged, Amanda and Raf have to be guilty. And because Amanda and Raf were guilty, it was staged. Makes perfect sense to someone with no logic.

What did he say in his CNN interview? I need a good laugh.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Mignini's last idea was that because it was staged, Amanda and Raf have to be guilty. And because Amanda and Raf were guilty, it was staged. Makes perfect sense to someone with no logic.

What did he say in his CNN interview? I need a good laugh.

Draca just posted it above.