Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Do you have any evidence for this?

Calling five prison snitches to testify IS evidence of this. No wonder Amanda was crying on Saturday. I'd be crying too if this is the best my defense could come up with.

I thought they filed a few other requests?

Did they? I know others (such as a computer expert) were mentioned in RS's appeal but what happened with that? Do you know?
 
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Donnino's actions should have been clearly limited to translating the police officers' questions and statements from Italian to English, and Knox's answers/statements from English to Italian. Nothing more than that. If the case ever gets as far as the Supreme Court (which I severely doubt), I think that the role played by Donnino in the proceedings would form an interesting point of discussion.

Was the role of the translator a point in Amanda's appeal?
 
And.....ooooops! The prosecution signally failed to provide any worthwhile evidence to this effect.

Nonsense. The presence of such evidence is clearly alluded to by the testimony of Brocci.

Indeed, any evidence that might have been there (e.g. pristine mud/grass) was almost certainly trampled over by the police officers who are captured on video taking cigarette breaks and making phone calls on that very spot.

More nonsense. Since you speak so confidently of this state of affairs, I'm sure you can readily document for us all how the footage of the police smoking on the ground underneath Filomena's window was taken prior to its forensic investigation.
 
They didn't take photographs of the ground beneath the window.

I've said it before, and I feel like I'll have to keep on saying it in this thread:

On what factual basis do you make this assertion?

Any additional testimony thats not in the Motivations would be testimony that basicly supports innocence.

Incorrect. One example off the top of my head to the contrary would be Kokomani's testimony.
 
Ask SomeAlibi - I'm sure he'll tell you that you're wrong about the law in this case. Although he hasn't really put his head above the parapet much since Curatolo was thoroughly exposed and discredited in Hellmann's court. I wonder if it's possible to smell of heroin....

As to the relevant content of this post:

The Cassation Court confirmed some essential aspects of the crime with direct relevance to the appeal of Knox and Sollecito, i.e. Guede wasn't alone and he didn't break-in.

There is no way that the appellant lawyers would be able to successfully pursue any line of defense dependent upon a contradiction (i.e. Guede was alone and/or actually broke in) of these two points. I await a rebuttal by SomeAlibi or any others qualified to speak on the matter.




As to the style:

Another ad hominem delivered against one who is not even here. Par for the course.
 
Hmmmm... straw man, perhaps?


Yes. The people who were offering rebuttals to arguments I never made in the first place were erecting straw men.

I'm glad we can find such areas of agreement.

:)

As you yourself seem to be affiliated to the building trade, you should be aware that it's unusual for the main exterior door to any premises to need a key to lock it shut (and therefore to unlock it again).


More than affiliated. I've been a full-time construction professional ... in the field ... at a number of different tradecrafts since the early '70s. I've worked as a general contractor field superintendent on heavy commercial and institutional construction since the late "80s.

As far as such lock configurations being unusual, you are mistaken. This is exactly the way a "double deadbolt" lockset is intended to work. Not only are they not uncommon, for many decades they were (and still are by the more sales oriented) recommended for additional security on residential entry doors.

The thing is, in residential applications they are intended to work in conjunction with and not in the absence of a functioning spring latch.

In most residential applications (in the U.S.) this involves two separate locksets, but the functions can be and sometimes are incorporated into the same device.

I would hope that you can see that this presents a potential safety hazard, if the occupants of a house are unable to find a key to unlock the door in the event of (e.g.) a fire inside the house.


You are quite correct about this, which is why fire safety professionals have been at odds with home security people concerning exactly this issue for many, many years. This has not impacted the sale of double deadbolt locksets for residential entry doors much, though, as any visit to a home improvement or building supply store will show you.

A number of precautions are recommended by fire safety pros when such a lockset is used, including ensuring that a key is always kept near the door. (I suspect that the implications of this do not escape you.) Variations on double-deadbolt locksets (including ones which use a removable thumbturn on the inside instead of a key cylinder, but allow the removal of that thumbturn only with a key in the exterior cylinder, providing the same security while requiring a conscious decision ... and a key ... on the outside of the door :p) are available, and gradually replacing the double deadbolt.

But the double deadbolt isn't dead yet, and many, many of them will remain installed for quite some time to come. Things like that change slowly in buildings. Think how many doors still have skeleton key locks.

Indeed, I believe that buliding regulations in many parts of the world stipulate that for new installations the main exterior door should be able to be unlocked from the inside without needing any sort of key - I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong in this.


Phrased in the fashion you chose I am unable to correct you, since I don't know the building codes in "many parts of the world". Perhaps you are more conversant with them than I am.

In the U.S. there is a patchwork of building codes, since this is usually addressed at a state, county, and/or municipal level, with a bewildering number of variations. The National Fire Protection Association (which is not a government agency) provides guidelines which the various jurisdictions may choose to incorporate if they so desire. Usually they do, or at least some portions of the NFPA code. Not always, though, and not necessarily all of it.

In general, door hardware is addressed based on occupancy and use definitions (as is everything else, for that matter), and residential use spaces are not subject to requirements as stringent as those suggested for public and institutional spaces.

This doesn't even address the issue of owner or resident modifications after code compliance for new construction is verified. Quite frequently such mods are not even addressed by the building codes themselves, and slip through the regulatory cracks, as it were.

In short, as far as the parts of the world I do know about are concerned, you would be wrong about this more often than not. Nearly always.

And this door - whether by accident or design - was indeed unconventional in this respect.


It was unconventional in the sense that, because the spring latch had been intentionally disabled, it was no longer possible to secure the door closed in any fashion (using the door hardware) without a key.

I agree that this is not a common condition in residential entry doors.

However, in the sense you seem to be intending, that it is unconventional for a residential entry door to be fitted with a lockset which requires key operation from the interior side at all, you are quite mistaken. It isn't even particularly unusual.

We're not talking about the need for a key to open the door from the outside, by the way (and as per your straw man above).


What straw man would that be? That the balcony door was also a potential means of egress from the apartment?

We're talking about the fact that the door needed to be locked and unlocked from the inside using a key.


Which I have never contested.

This was the case on the night of the murder, so it's entirely correct to say that on the night of the murder, Guede (or anyone else) was faced with an unconventional situation where a key was needed to unlock and open the main exterior door.


Aside from your mistaken insistence on the term "unconventional", this of course is based on the premise that Guede (or anyone else), for whatever reason, found himself in the apartment with the entry door locked in the first place. There is something slightly circular about that, but I wasn't addressing that question in the first place.

You've already agreed that the balcony door offered an alternative exit, which is all I ever mentioned.

That's two things we agree on.

Is there some peculiarly British meaning of "straw man" which I am unfamiliar with, or are you just tossing the term around because you think it sounds erudite?
 
Fuji,
You have been one of the most vocal advocates for the staged break-in theory; therefore, my asking you to support this claim with evidence is not changing the subject. Nor is it the first time I have attempted to discuss it with you. I am disappointed that you do not wish to discuss this key question.

When I am discussing the specific matter of the ground underneath the window, it is indeed fairly considered to be changing the subject to ask me my opinion on glass scatter patterns in the room itself. As to our earlier exchange, I had been asked to look at a PerugiaShock link, I did so, and gave my honest opinion. I fail to see how this was changing the subject, either.
 
Whether trampled vegetation was observed would not change anything if Massei is wrong about the rock being thrown from outside.

Incorrect. If there is no discernible evidence of anyone having stood under that window on the night in question, then in and of itself this is a strong indicator that the burglary was staged.

And, as pointed out in my prior post, the only evidence that Massei cites for the proposition that there was no glass on the ground is the testimony of someone who was not looking for glass.

No, that is the only evidence that you have cited. Massei does not have to indicate which specific photographic or other forensic exhibit was the crucial determinant for him in reaching his conclusion. It is implicit that his judgments are made in consideration of the extensive evidence file.
 
If the condition of the ground was such an important issue for Brocci, then why did she not take pictures of it?

Why not, indeed?

After all, isn't that her job--to take pictures of important things?

Yes, I believe that is a reasonable approximation of it.

How would it sound if she had said "well, I saw this trampled vegetation, but anyway, I didn't take a picture." She would sound, well . . . incompetent.

She would indeed. So why do you think that this is what actually happened?
 
I'm afraid no such things exist nor were presented in court. Ironically what Massei based his argument was the testimony of ILE photographer, not his photographs :)

I'm sure you have some evidence to support this bizarre assertion.
 
For completeness I'd add that such "presence of untrampled vegetation" does not prove anything. Vegetation tends to "untrample" itself without outside help :)

We don't know how many cops and other people walked around that house before the photographer got there to notice (but not photograph) the state of vegetation, but quite probably more than a one. Why would anyone stepping there the night before leave anything noticeable? It's not like Guede rolled in that grass and dry leaves there like a dog or nuzzled it like a pig, after all.

I love the knee-jerk defensiveness.

"They probably contaminated the site before they investigated it."

"But even if they did, it's not important."

"But even if it is important, it's wrong."

:)
 
Actually it's backed up by common sense.

The simple fact that nothing like this have been proposed in the courtroom should make you stop and think.

Interesting.

So, I guess LondonJohn is off the hook, since apparently you're going to supply the cite that a blow of sufficient force to produce a nosebleed in an individual will "almost certainly" leave notable visible bruising on them as well.
 
Interesting.

So, I guess LondonJohn is off the hook, since apparently you're going to supply the cite that a blow of sufficient force to produce a nosebleed in an individual will "almost certainly" leave notable visible bruising on them as well.
My daughter cut the inside of her mouth a while back. She's 10 months and fell face first onto a wooden floor. It dripped blood forever, but you'd never have known from her face that she'd taken a knock.
 
Calling five prison snitches to testify IS evidence of this.
Is evidence they know they're gone lose? How does it follow? Please explain.

I'd be crying too if this is the best my defense could come up with.
Why do you think it's the best? Care to give some evidence :)?


Did they? I know others (such as a computer expert) were mentioned in RS's appeal but what happened with that? Do you know?
I guess I do. You don't know? Then why are you making stuff up?
 
As to the relevant content of this post:

The Cassation Court confirmed some essential aspects of the crime with direct relevance to the appeal of Knox and Sollecito, i.e. Guede wasn't alone and he didn't break-in.

There is no way that the appellant lawyers would be able to successfully pursue any line of defense dependent upon a contradiction (i.e. Guede was alone and/or actually broke in) of these two points. I await a rebuttal by SomeAlibi or any others qualified to speak on the matter.


You're wrong. simple as that.

I suggest you read some information on modern jurisprudence, and you may find out that rulings of fact in one trial have no bearing on rulings of fact in any other trial - the facts have to be proven in each trial totally separately. it is only rulings in law that can be applied across different cases.

Therefore, the findings of fact in Guede's trials have zero implications for the findings of fact in Knox's/Sollecito's trials. The prosecution won't even be able to refer to the findings of fact in Guede's trials during Knox's/Sollecito's current appeal. Hellmann's court will restrict itself to considering evidence presented directly to it during the appeal (whether evidence/testimony brought over from the first trial or the new evidence/testimony granted by Hellmann).

If the prosecution can prove to Hellmann's court that this was a group crime (using primary evidence and testimony), and that Knox and Sollecito were part of that group, then so be it. But what the prosecution won't be able to do is say something like: "Ah, the Supreme Court just validated the verdict against Guede - which convicted him of being part of a group of people who killed Meredith Kercher - and we contend that Knox and Sollecito were the other members of that group."

If you're going to continue "arguing" this point, please could you at least have the courtesy of gaining some additional comprehension about the subject first - otherwise it's like arguing in a vacuum...
 
As to the relevant content of this post:

The Cassation Court confirmed some essential aspects of the crime with direct relevance to the appeal of Knox and Sollecito, i.e. Guede wasn't alone and he didn't break-in.

There is no way that the appellant lawyers would be able to successfully pursue any line of defense dependent upon a contradiction (i.e. Guede was alone and/or actually broke in) of these two points. I await a rebuttal by SomeAlibi or any others qualified to speak on the matter.

What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, so we don't need to wait on SomeAlibi peeking out from behind their rock to correct you.

Do you really think that Knox and Sollecito have been convicted in absentia by the court handling Guede's case? Doesn't that seem a little weird to you?

As to the style:

Another ad hominem delivered against one who is not even here. Par for the course.

You have fallen prey to a common misunderstanding about what the ad hominem fallacy consists of.

Incorrect. If there is no discernible evidence of anyone having stood under that window on the night in question, then in and of itself this is a strong indicator that the burglary was staged.

Amongst rationalists it is held that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

No, that is the only evidence that you have cited. Massei does not have to indicate which specific photographic or other forensic exhibit was the crucial determinant for him in reaching his conclusion. It is implicit that his judgments are made in consideration of the extensive evidence file.

Ah, the good old "secret evidence" gambit. That never gets old for some people.

If you think there is "secret evidence" which informed Massei and Christiani's reasoning but which has inexplicably been completely overlooked in their Motivations report, by the media present in court, by Mignini and Maresca and every other prosecution figure and by every single obsessive guilter over at PMF and TMJK then show us the evidence for this evidence.


I love the knee-jerk defensiveness.

"They probably contaminated the site before they investigated it."

"But even if they did, it's not important."

"But even if it is important, it's wrong."

:)

I love the knee-jerk defensiveness.

"What I'm saying might be stupid for one reason, but there's no way any rational person could point out that it was stupid for three reasons! It must be knee-jerk defensiveness!".
 
pilot padron,

The prosecution never tested a theory of breaking the window as is described in Massei. The defense did, as Sgt. Pasquali testified. Why should a skeptic take the word of the person who did not do the experiment over the word of the person who did? Fuji does not care to answer, but perhaps you can help me to understand.

While you're at it, pilot, perhaps you could answer for me, since halides1 does not care to answer, if you think that the Perugian police sent their photographer to specifically investigate the ground under the window without any expectation at all that as the photographer, she might, as one might assume, have a natural inclination towards taking pictures?
 
My daughter cut the inside of her mouth a while back. She's 10 months and fell face first onto a wooden floor. It dripped blood forever, but you'd never have known from her face that she'd taken a knock.


Completely incomparable. I am guessing that if your daughter cut the inside of her mouth but not the outside, she either bit her gum or had a soft impact which nonetheless pushed one of her teeth into her gum.

I guarantee you that to be hit hard enough on the nose to cause it to bleed is to guarantee a level of bruising to the nose, cheeks or lips - and usually one or two black eyes to boot. One cannot get a nosebleed from a light tap on the nose, or even a sharp slap - it needs a fairly full-blooded hit with an open hand or a punch. And that will leave marks and bruising.
 
<Yawn> World's oldest ad hominem. It's understandable though. AK and RS's defense teams know they are going to lose on the DNA evidence and everything else. They have nothing left to throw at the wall except five prison snitches.

What is the evidence that you believe will be the basis for refusing the appeal?
 
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