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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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so since Israel no longer appreciates the USA's input and advice, when can we expect a refund of our billions in foreign aid?
 
Make 1845 U.S. Border Legal.

Israeli PM calls for “just solution” to end the conflict.

Aboard Air Force Aleph (Reuters) – Speaking to reporters accompanying Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on his long flight to the United States tonight, Netanyahu spoke of the injustice and hardship Mexicans have endured since American forces annexed Texas in 1845. “Tens of thousands of ordinary Mexicans were driven out of their homes – the only homes they had known for centuries - and forced to live in poverty and squalor south of the border imposed by American aggression,” Netanyahu said. “The Israeli and Mexican people agree on this: This festering wound will never heal until America takes bold steps to return to the internationally accepted lines of 1845. Clearly the settlement activity that’s taken place occupied Mexico since then is illegal. When I meet the President tomorrow I will tell him to halt all building activity in Texas immediately. Two lands for two peoples, yes, but not on land taken by force from Mexico,” the Prime Minister said.

http://bigpeace.com/dfriedman/2011/05/20/netanyahu-urges-u-s-return-to-1845-borders/


What is fair for the Goose should also be fair for the Gander.
 
boyntonstu said:
Israeli PM calls for “just solution” to end the conflict.

Aboard Air Force Aleph (Reuters) – Speaking to reporters accompanying Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on his long flight to the United States tonight, Netanyahu spoke of the injustice and hardship Mexicans have endured since American forces annexed Texas in 1845. “Tens of thousands of ordinary Mexicans were driven out of their homes – the only homes they had known for centuries - and forced to live in poverty and squalor south of the border imposed by American aggression,” Netanyahu said. “The Israeli and Mexican people agree on this: This festering wound will never heal until America takes bold steps to return to the internationally accepted lines of 1845. Clearly the settlement activity that’s taken place occupied Mexico since then is illegal. When I meet the President tomorrow I will tell him to halt all building activity in Texas immediately. Two lands for two peoples, yes, but not on land taken by force from Mexico,” the Prime Minister said.

http://bigpeace.com/dfriedman/2011/05/20/netanyahu-urges-u-s-return-to-1845-borders/


What is fair for the Goose should also be fair for the Gander.
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Except that the 1845 event was a combining of two sovereign nations, the Republic of Texas and the USA.
 
boyntonstu said:
Israeli PM calls for “just solution” to end the conflict.

Aboard Air Force Aleph (Reuters) – Speaking to reporters accompanying Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on his long flight to the United States tonight, Netanyahu spoke of the injustice and hardship Mexicans have endured since American forces annexed Texas in 1845. “Tens of thousands of ordinary Mexicans were driven out of their homes – the only homes they had known for centuries - and forced to live in poverty and squalor south of the border imposed by American aggression,” Netanyahu said. “The Israeli and Mexican people agree on this: This festering wound will never heal until America takes bold steps to return to the internationally accepted lines of 1845. Clearly the settlement activity that’s taken place occupied Mexico since then is illegal. When I meet the President tomorrow I will tell him to halt all building activity in Texas immediately. Two lands for two peoples, yes, but not on land taken by force from Mexico,” the Prime Minister said.

http://bigpeace.com/dfriedman/2011/05/20/netanyahu-urges-u-s-return-to-1845-borders/


What is fair for the Goose should also be fair for the Gander.
Click to expand...

Both of you need to study some basic history before making such grand demands.
 
boyntonstu said:
Israeli PM calls for “just solution” to end the conflict.

Aboard Air Force Aleph (Reuters) – Speaking to reporters accompanying Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on his long flight to the United States tonight, Netanyahu spoke of the injustice and hardship Mexicans have endured since American forces annexed Texas in 1845. “Tens of thousands of ordinary Mexicans were driven out of their homes – the only homes they had known for centuries - and forced to live in poverty and squalor south of the border imposed by American aggression,” Netanyahu said. “The Israeli and Mexican people agree on this: This festering wound will never heal until America takes bold steps to return to the internationally accepted lines of 1845. Clearly the settlement activity that’s taken place occupied Mexico since then is illegal. When I meet the President tomorrow I will tell him to halt all building activity in Texas immediately. Two lands for two peoples, yes, but not on land taken by force from Mexico,” the Prime Minister said.

http://bigpeace.com/dfriedman/2011/05/20/netanyahu-urges-u-s-return-to-1845-borders/


What is fair for the Goose should also be fair for the Gander.
Click to expand...

OK, fine, as long as Israel returns the money we have bled out to support his country over the years. We'll give Mexico some of it, as I am quite sure they will eagerly accept a few hundred billion in return for Texas. We'll have plenty left over, which we can use towards goals which actually accrue a benefit to the US, rather than the headaches, roadblocks to progress, and loss of American lives which were our reward for the original investment. Israel can then continue to do whatever they want to do, this time without our money to help in the doing.

Everyone wins.
 
I don't expect Israel to ever return to the 1967 borders or anything close to them. Right-wing Zionists would start a civil war if Israel attempted to bring home 100,000 or so settlers from the West Bank.

I think Israel prefers perpetual war with the Arabs and isolation from the international community, over fighting its fellow Jews.
 
I agree of course the actual history of the USA's annexation of Texas is different thant portrayed here, but, er, you do realize that article was satire, don't you?
 
SonOfLaertes said:
OK, fine, as long as Israel returns the money we have bled out to support his country over the years. We'll give Mexico some of it, as I am quite sure they will eagerly accept a few hundred billion in return for Texas. We'll have plenty left over, which we can use towards goals which actually accrue a benefit to the US, rather than the headaches, roadblocks to progress, and loss of American lives which were our reward for the original investment. Israel can then continue to do whatever they want to do, this time without our money to help in the doing.
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Sorry, in Israel's wars with its neighbors, how many American lives (apart for the ones that actually fought in the IDF with American citizenship) were there lost?

And when it comes to the military grants, this has been commented on in detail ad nauseum: America's $2.75 billion dollar gift to Israel

I'm sure with the amount to the $30+ billion Israel purchases per year from the US to sustain its QED in the ME, with the military grants, of which 3/4 goes into joint R&D projects and weapons purchases, 1/4th into Israel's military industry and for the military hardware (ie mortars, defense systems as Trophy, ammunition, etc.) that Israel distributes to coalition forces in Iraq/Afghanistan, would be easily forgotten. This is mentioned in the thread linked above and more.

Perhaps we could get past this hapless attempt at US paternalism towards Israel and see it rather as the long-term ally as it has been for decades already. And while we're at it, maybe get a better understanding in the USAID grants/loans to Israel and how this actually functions, on top of the billions in bilateral trade and foundations such as BIRD and BARD.
 
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Skeptic said:
Tsk, tsk, tsk. How awful.
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As I said, a military dictatorship where the accused have no civil rights. It is a jewish, military dictatorship that takes pride in its ability to extract confessions under torture.

It does not differ from the Wehrmacht putting members of the French resistance on trial.
 
boyntonstu said:
Israeli PM calls for “just solution” to end the conflict.

Aboard Air Force Aleph (Reuters) – Speaking to reporters accompanying Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on his long flight to the United States tonight, Netanyahu spoke of the injustice and hardship Mexicans have endured since American forces annexed Texas in 1845. “Tens of thousands of ordinary Mexicans were driven out of their homes – the only homes they had known for centuries - and forced to live in poverty and squalor south of the border imposed by American aggression,” Netanyahu said. “The Israeli and Mexican people agree on this: This festering wound will never heal until America takes bold steps to return to the internationally accepted lines of 1845. Clearly the settlement activity that’s taken place occupied Mexico since then is illegal. When I meet the President tomorrow I will tell him to halt all building activity in Texas immediately. Two lands for two peoples, yes, but not on land taken by force from Mexico,” the Prime Minister said.

http://bigpeace.com/dfriedman/2011/05/20/netanyahu-urges-u-s-return-to-1845-borders/

What is fair for the Goose should also be fair for the Gander.
Click to expand...

There is a treaty between the US and Mexico regarding the borders. Israel has no treaty regarding its borders with the Palestinians.

Israel is supposed to be negotiating that border.

OTOH, it is good Israel acknowledges the evil it did and is continuing to do to the Palestinians. For a while there I was getting the idea they really were too stupid to understand what they were doing.
 
Thunder said:
I don't expect Israel to ever return to the 1967 borders or anything close to them. Right-wing Zionists would start a civil war if Israel attempted to bring home 100,000 or so settlers from the West Bank.
Click to expand...

And both sides will whine about the evils of the other. Who has the popcorn franchise?

I think Israel prefers perpetual war with the Arabs and isolation from the international community, over fighting its fellow Jews.
Click to expand...

What ISRAELIS choose to do to each other is their business and not of interest to the rest of the world.
 
Skeptic said:
I agree of course the actual history of the USA's annexation of Texas is different thant portrayed here, but, er, you do realize that article was satire, don't you?
Click to expand...

To qualify as satire it has to be based upon the facts of the subject. This does not. Therefore it is just dumb.
 
One more time on the 1947 borders

The entire world including the majority of Israelis agree the basis for negotiations will be the 1947 borders. Only the Likud party and further right parties in Israel and American rednecks do not agree.
 
The reactions of "Son of Leartes" and "Thunder" (in another thread) show the danger of Israel relying on US guarantees of its security. Such guarantees, history shows, are worthless -- to be possibly followed so long as the guarante does everything the guarantor wants, as long as it is politically expedient for the guarantor. And, of course, any action by the guarante that does not fit exactly "being a good boy" will be an excuse to turn on them. Remember Czechoslovakia and South Vietnam?
 
Skeptic said:
The reactions of "Son of Leartes" and "Thunder" (in another thread) show the danger of Israel relying on US guarantees of its security. Such guarantees, history shows, are worthless -- to be possibly followed so long as the guarante does everything the guarantor wants, as long as it is politically expedient for the guarantor. And, of course, any action by the guarante that does not fit exactly "being a good boy" will be an excuse to turn on them. Remember Czechoslovakia and South Vietnam?
Click to expand...

While it is amusing at times to listen to the izzies pound their chests (but usually just embarrassed for them) without the US the country has nothing going for it. Israel relies upon American charity, both private and government, to stay afloat.

Take for example its financial affairs. If we were to treat its taxes revenues as in the US with federal separate from state and local we find the $3B cash per year amounts to 10% of the federal. That would be the equivalent of some $350B in the US. They just might have to give up their free health care.

They might raise their own taxes but already they are one of the highest tax rate countries in the world.

It needs the current expenditures to make Israel attractive to suckers to go and live there. I could make a long post simply listing the things I know of that US charity subsidizes for Israel. Without them no one in their right mind would go there; meaning only fundies and fanatics would go there.

It needs them to give tax breaks to its criminal squatters in the West Bank -- that is the only way it could get rational people to live there and, as it said, make it politically impossible to give up the West Bank. Keep this in mind when the izzies whine about it being impossible. They chose to make it impossible. So now they have to do the impossible.

It is correct Israel should not rely upon the US for anything including charity. If Israel does want to go it alone fine but lets not let them pick and choose their reliances. Israel is a client state of the US. It is all or nothing for client states. It is also true that client states occasionally get uppity and have to have their ears proverbially boxed every now and then. For Israel it is long overdue.
 
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