Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Hello everyone,
Does anyone know if Frank Sfarzo will still continue writing and reporting on his old blog, Perugia Shock?

It has been resurrected here:
http://perugiashock.com/


I would imagine that his lawyers' advice would be for him not to write on the case until/unless there's some resolution (or at least clarification) for him regarding the defamation claims. I would also imagine that his lawyers might currently be petitioning the Florence courts to challenge the reasoning for the issuance of the court order. If that's the case, then it's doubly unwise for Sfarzo to be publishing new pieces.
 

Very interesting, and essentially a confirmation of what most of us already thought. I think there might be a typo though - I've never herd of "row data" concerning DNA testing - I think that might be meant to read "raw data" - i.e. the electropherograms and supporting source data.

I've no doubt though that the groupthinkers among the pro-guilt crowd will try to rationalise this into some ludicrous form of conspiracy theory and/or huge PR-conducted lie...

ETA: I strongly suspect that Curt Knox's and Edda Mellas' July 4th court appearance will result in a similar adjournment as in Amanda Knox's slander case - i.e. an adjournment until the end of the year and the end of the first appeal in the murder trial. I also suspect that the motivation for such an adjournment is to save the courts time and money if the murder appeal results in acquittal.
 
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On what basis do you assert this claim?


The completely inadequate police testimony and evidence listed in Massei, and the total absence in either Massei or any court reports of any evidence of a proper police search of the ground, any detailed photos of the ground, or any sifting of the earth. Other than that, pure conjecture :rolleyes:
 
Another excellent comment. The Daily Mail wrote:
Quote
"It was, according to one party guest, "bedlam, with drink, drugs and bodies everywhere.
"Some people were naked inside the bedrooms.
"There were people draped over each other.
"I've been to a lot of student parties in my time, but I've never been to a party like that.
"Everyone just wanted to get drunk, get high and get laid. There was also a lot of violence because everyone was so pumped up."
Endquote
I then checked out the photograph of the party that accompanied the text, and I was shocked and disappointed that it looked like a tame-to-moderate undergraduate party. Where was all of that promised debauchery?

'It would also describe every good (college) party I've ever been to.' :p

I especially like the last one, "Everyone just wanted to get drunk, get high and get laid." Doesn't anyone remember the 'unofficial' callback chorus to this song? My mother knows it! I also like the sly insinuation that there was something...peculiar...about partygoers looking for vacant bedrooms and some privacy so they could shed clothes, no doubt to compare tattoos in this day and age.... ;)

The rest of it is mostly ridiculous, making West Seattle sound like a scene from the Bronx in the Seventies, or quote-mining to deliberately deceive, as the line 'I can get any man I want!' is 'suggestive' of her being a 'man-eater.' I was reading around about this article and found out it was more likely the true context of that quote was that someone was suggesting she couldn't get the guys 'in demand' and 'settled' for the 'lesser' ones.

Some of the things attributed to her are hilarious, this article has her tending the pot plants, keeps throwing around the words 'court' 'criminal' and 'conviction' like they mean something in the context of a noise violation that gets paid online like a parking ticket, and refers to "a series of one-night stands with Italian men" which I suppose makes Daniel Deluca feel like a stallion. :D


"We can do the innuendo we can dance and sing, when all is said and done we haven't told you a thing...we all know that Crap is King give us dirty laundry!"
 
I'm not sure what the police said about it, but legally they should have halted the interrogation as soon as Amanda "cracked" and admitted to being present, since from that point she was a suspect but didn't have a lawyer. So either she had been interrogated for three hours before the police got their 'break-through', or they continued to interrogate her illegally after she became a suspect. Take your pick. :p


It's certainly been a long time since we heard the pro-guilt crowd spouting the nonsense that "barely had the interview chairs been set out" when Knox "blurted out" her accusation of Lumumba. I'd imagine that she probably broke down under coercion pressure at around 1.15-1.30am - some two hours into her interrogation.

And anyhow, let's not forget that none of the oral or written confession from 1.45am will be considered in the appeal. The fact that it was placed before the judicial panel in the first trial (via the concurrent Lumumba slander case) flies in the face of justice. My understanding is that Knox's "gift" statement from the following morning is admissible, but a reading of that easily shows that it's anything but a confession/accusation. It actually shows that Knox is confused and frightened about the allegations against her, and is already claiming that her original view of events (that she was at Sollecito's all night) is the truth - even though she can't square it with the police saying they have hard evidence placing her at the murder scene.

For reference, here is that written statement again. Judge for yourselves whether it's indicative of Knox's complicity in the murder, or even an attempt to implicate Lumumba:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html
 
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Kaosium,

Good point. Even better if true. I can't tell from Amanda's testimony just when she "cracked" and started singin' like a bird. It was about three hours into her interrogation that she signed her first DECLARATION, 1:45am. For all I know, at that time, she'd been singin' her new tune for a couple hours. Did Amanda, Napoleoni, Mignini, or any others present, ever say just when Amanda cracked?

///

Amanda wasn't sure in her testimony on the stand, said something about it being hours but couldn't judge the time very well due to exhaustion, stress and whatnot. Napoleoni just outright lied about it as far as I can tell, her story doesn't corroborate with anything and is suspicious in how there's gaps of hours where nothing happens she doesn't account for, up until 3:30 AM what she describes would have taken about five minutes. In her account they don't start anything until the translator arrives ~12:30 if I recall correctly off the top of my head, but I don't believe her. I've been trolling shamelessly for months now hoping someone would take up the police account of the interrogation so we could go through it, to no avail. Would you like to play? :)

My guess is if she'd been singing her tune for a couple of hours at 1:45 AM then that initial statement would be more refined. We know from Raffaele's statement being dated and timed all of twenty-five minutes after they walked through the door that they were perfectly capable of generating the documents to be signed in short order.

As I recall, there's a 10:39 call from Amanda to Filomena which cuts off with her saying the police are approaching. As that would be virtually the instant Raffaele's statement is timestamped, that suggests to me that the interrogation started right then and there, which would correlate with her recollection she didn't wait long and was still on the first page of her homework from her testimony. Also, if Raffaele had just 'dropped' her alibi, you'd think they'd have been on her as soon as possible as they wouldn't want her wandering off.
 
Very interesting, and essentially a confirmation of what most of us already thought. I think there might be a typo though - I've never herd of "row data" concerning DNA testing - I think that might be meant to read "raw data" - i.e. the electropherograms and supporting source data.

I've no doubt though that the groupthinkers among the pro-guilt crowd will try to rationalise this into some ludicrous form of conspiracy theory and/or huge PR-conducted lie...

Perhaps it's just coincidence, but this subject has caused some unusual behavior in this debate. It was this very issue that led to an uncharacteristic meltdown of Machiavelli on the IIP site, and also it was the item under discussion which led to Fulcanelli being banned after an agitated post directed at Halides, who never gave up on it despite the passions it...inspired...in others. Also, way back in the Cartwheels thread, the first time I recall a certain someone going to the extreme in defiance, in finality demanding a notarized copy of admission from the prosecution that they hadn't turned them over, before the 'evidence' was acceptable to them. I exaggerate a bit in the latter I'm sure, but not by much!

ETA: I strongly suspect that Curt Knox's and Edda Mellas' July 4th court appearance will result in a similar adjournment as in Amanda Knox's slander case - i.e. an adjournment until the end of the year and the end of the first appeal in the murder trial. I also suspect that the motivation for such an adjournment is to save the courts time and money if the murder appeal results in acquittal.

Do you think they will just dismiss these extraneous charges against all and sundry if there is an acquittal? I'd like to think that was the case, but my (limited) experience with the Italian Justice System suggests otherwise.

I must say dragging them into court on that day to face charges for the innocuous things they said in Seattle almost implies there's someone over there who wants this to become a bigger story in the US...
 
It would be laughable if it didn't have such potentially-serious ramifications. And it raises further questions about just who was doing the forensics collection in that cottage in the crucial hours and days after the murder, and why.

I still can't find a satisfactory explanation as to why Stefanoni was even anywhere near the cottage in Perugia in early November, far less why she was actually participating in evidence collection. She's a forensic analyst who works in a laboratory in Rome. Her first contact with the evidence should have been when she was sent it for testing. The evidence at the cottage should have been collected and evaluated by specifically-trained scene of crime police, whose sole job is to investigate crime scenes and discover, identify and collect forensic evidence. There's simply no way that properly-trained personnel would have been wrapping that mop handle (which might have been extremely important evidence in the case, let's not forget) using wrapping paper found in a cupboard in the crime scene house!

But we can add this to the long (and growing) list of the cack-handed way in which important forensic evidence has been mishandled in this case. How about the kitchen knife, which was inexplicably transferred from an envelope into a desk diary box which happened to be lying around in a policeman's office in Perugia? Or the towel which was not dried out properly, and which subsequently was destroyed as evidence by mould? Or the bra clasp, which was stored in a sealed airtight container and which consequently rusted and festered such that it's now useless as evidence?

If I were a cynic, I might suggest that the police were (and are) actually trying to degrade or destroy important evidence in this case. But I'm not a cynic, of course :)

I've wondered if some were trying to destroy the evidence and get Amanda off. She is a woman that is easy to like. Women seem to have a love/hate relationship with pretty women.

My wife hated Snow White, the pretty woman/dope user/thief, that rented in our in-law apartment.

I still find myself biased towards the belief that Snow White was somewhat innocent and that one of her boyfriends did the crime. The police seem to think the same way. The disappearance of one of her boyfriends (he never picked up his clothes) made me think that he was arrested for something. The police told me that they couldn't tell me if he was arrested or not.

Of course that doesn't explain Mignini. My daughter went to Italy shortly after the murder and found Italian men to be extremely rude and men of all other European nations to be very friendly, especially the French and Irish. Maybe there is some bias.

Stefanoni may have been one of those women that naturally hate beautiful women. Maybe Mignini is a fag :D and hated pretty women for the same reason.
 
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On what basis do you assert this claim?

Interesting you should ask this because just last night I was going through hundreds of pictures and I came across one of ILE kneeling down inspecting what looks like the front patio of the cottage. There were about 4 people looking at an evidence marker and one of them had a big camera.

This made me realize that they did look closely at certain parts of the outside area and obviously photographed specific areas. Why are there no photos of the area under Filomena's window? In fact the only photo I have ever seen is one of several officials standing around on the area in question... smoking.

Do you have any photos of the outside area under Filomena's window? It truly seems to me if one of the main aspects of the case of proving a staged break-in was the lack of glass in this particular area there should certainly be 1) photos to support this assertion and 2) no photos of ILE mulling around and flicking ashes onto such a highly evidential area.
 
Amanda wasn't sure in her testimony on the stand, said something about it being hours but couldn't judge the time very well due to exhaustion, stress and whatnot. Napoleoni just outright lied about it as far as I can tell, her story doesn't corroborate with anything and is suspicious in how there's gaps of hours where nothing happens she doesn't account for, up until 3:30 AM what she describes would have taken about five minutes. In her account they don't start anything until the translator arrives ~12:30 if I recall correctly off the top of my head, but I don't believe her. I've been trolling shamelessly for months now hoping someone would take up the police account of the interrogation so we could go through it, to no avail. Would you like to play? :)

My guess is if she'd been singing her tune for a couple of hours at 1:45 AM then that initial statement would be more refined. We know from Raffaele's statement being dated and timed all of twenty-five minutes after they walked through the door that they were perfectly capable of generating the documents to be signed in short order.

As I recall, there's a 10:39 call from Amanda to Filomena which cuts off with her saying the police are approaching. As that would be virtually the instant Raffaele's statement is timestamped, that suggests to me that the interrogation started right then and there, which would correlate with her recollection she didn't wait long and was still on the first page of her homework from her testimony. Also, if Raffaele had just 'dropped' her alibi, you'd think they'd have been on her as soon as possible as they wouldn't want her wandering off.

________________________

Kaosium,

Here's Rita Ficarra's account of Amanda cracking, in testimony before the court:

"In the police station was being questioned by Raffaele Sollecito - said the inspector -. At one point, my colleagues told me that Sollecito was saying different things and no longer providing 'an excuse to Amanda. They told me then to hear the girl and ask her what she had done the evening November 1. Amanda was initially surprised. We asked her to show us his cell phone and she did it spontaneously. We found an outgoing message, around 20, 20.30 of November 1, sent to Lumumba. when I showed the text message asking who was this person, for a moment and 'rimsta at him, after which' and 'burst into tears, put his hands on his head and accused him of being the perpetrator of the crime ". "E '... and he' ... and he 'was to kill him," he said then, referring to Amanda Patrick Lumumba.(AGI, February 28, 2009 / Googlized)


Ficarra doesn't provide the time of day for Amanda's accusation....but the he did it accusation don't sound like the result of a three hour interrogation. Ten minutes?

///
 
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no legitimate reason

Perhaps it's just coincidence, but this subject has caused some unusual behavior in this debate.
Kaosium,

I wonder if they see it in the same terms as I do: The lack of release of these files makes it impossible to maintain that the first trial was fair. As Dan Krane wrote, "There is no legitimate reason for a laboratory to refuse a defendant’s request to examine the electronic data."
 
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Kaosium,

Here's Rita Ficarra's account of Amanda cracking, in testimony before the court:

"In the police station was being questioned by Raffaele Sollecito - said the inspector -. At one point, my colleagues told me that Sollecito was saying different things and no longer providing 'an excuse to Amanda. They told me then to hear the girl and ask her what she had done the evening November 1. Amanda was initially surprised. We asked her to show us his cell phone and she did it spontaneously. We found an outgoing message, around 20, 20.30 of November 1, sent to Lumumba. when I showed the text message asking who was this person, for a moment and 'rimsta at him, after which' and 'burst into tears, put his hands on his head and accused him of being the perpetrator of the crime ". "E '... and he' ... and he 'was to kill him," he said then, referring to Amanda Patrick Lumumba.(AGI, February 28, 2009 / Googlized)


Ficarra doesn't provide the time of day for Amanda's accusation....but the he did it accusation don't sound like the result of a three hour interrogation. Ten minutes?

///


Fine, where does Rita say Amanda was when she was to "hear the girl"? Are you jumping to some kind of conclusion that isn't specified because it fits what you want to believe?
 
Is it that serious? It's ridiculous.

I would just write him that we're all supporting him and wish him a best of luck.

Hello everyone,
Does anyone know if Frank Sfarzo will still continue writing and reporting on his old blog, Perugia Shock?

It has been resurrected here:
http://perugiashock.com/

He has "a lot to say" but is working on some encryption issues first. I think he has to be absolutely certain he will be safe in reporting. I can't wait for that first post!
 
________________________

Kaosium,

Here's Rita Ficarra's account of Amanda cracking, in testimony before the court:

"In the police station was being questioned by Raffaele Sollecito - said the inspector -. At one point, my colleagues told me that Sollecito was saying different things and no longer providing 'an excuse to Amanda. They told me then to hear the girl and ask her what she had done the evening November 1. Amanda was initially surprised. We asked her to show us his cell phone and she did it spontaneously. We found an outgoing message, around 20, 20.30 of November 1, sent to Lumumba. when I showed the text message asking who was this person, for a moment and 'rimsta at him, after which' and 'burst into tears, put his hands on his head and accused him of being the perpetrator of the crime ". "E '... and he' ... and he 'was to kill him," he said then, referring to Amanda Patrick Lumumba.(AGI, February 28, 2009 / Googlized)


Ficarra doesn't provide the time of day for Amanda's accusation....but the he did it accusation don't sound like the result of a three hour interrogation. Ten minutes?

///

Yes, that's what Napoleoni, Ficarra and Zugarini said, I don't find it the slightest bit believable in any respect. This friendly little 'chick chat' doesn't square with the later 'opportunity fire' calunnia charge on Amanda which revealed there were twelve cops eligible, (four never filed apparently) nor with Giobbi's testimony in which he reveals with detailed associated reasons that he ordered both Amanda and Raffaele brought in for questioning so he could 'study their reactions' together or somesuch.

Also, if it happened the way they said, the idea that they'd arrest her, Raffaele and Patrick because she breaks down in tears and says something silly that a 'B-movie' writer wouldn't pen, and never offers any details, is ludicrous. As is the idea they'd parade through town with sirens blaring and lights flashing and announce 'case closed.' They testified in court they'd never even thought of Patrick in connection to the case, it came as a total surprise, yet two days later they'd offer 'evidence' of him being involved before Matteini regarding his phone records--which curiously is what they're talking to Amanda about in every version of the story--including hers.

As for the time, the three of them testified it was shortly after Raffaele 'dropped' her alibi, and all three come across Amanda quite by accident, they all see Amanda doing a 'cartwheel' which is interesting being as she was on the phone with Filomena when they approached, and in each story I don't believe they refer to the others being there. Amanda speaks her excruciating line--it actually looks better through Google Translate because it's mostly gobbled up it appears--which is of course why it isn't taped.

Then Napoleoni 'forgets' to turn on the other camera which is supposedly for the rest of the 'interview' which begins at 3:30 AM, which means nearly five hours went by and they only accounted for this little 'ten minute' interval. The rest of the time they're waiting for the interpreter to arrive, or getting her officially declared a suspect, and lots of tea and cookies. They made a special point of how they stuffed her with cupcakes, even though the cafeteria wouldn't open until 5 AM...

They also each were sure to regale the court with cartwheels, which as recently revealed in one of Dan-O's posts ( I think) began with the head man himself right before their testimony. This is the first mention of cartwheels, and I bring it up not because Amanda wasn't doing exercises in the hall--she admitted to that--but because it suggests if they can coordinate their cartwheels story with one another, they can collude in other testimony as well, which I'm virtually certain they did.

If we are to accept the interrogation as this impromptu break-down of Amanda for no reason spitting out that silly line 'It's him...he's the murderer! or somesuch as rendered in English, we have to dismiss the testimony, evidence and common sense suggestions to the idea this was a planned event. There are twelve extra cops on duty on a weeknight, they insist Raffaele come in the middle of the night, and they offer three excuses as to why it wasn't taped. The two above; 'no chance it was unexpected' and then the later 'interview' leading to the 5:45 statement 'I forgot' and then finally as to why the reading and signing of the 5:45 statement 'we were too busy as we had to arrest Patrick Lumumba' or thereabouts as Mignini revealed.

Fine, I hate to break it to you, but I strongly suspect the cops lied through their teeth about all of this. None of it makes any sense for a functioning police department, that they'd really go out and arrest Patrick on the basis of this little break-down by a traumatized girl who could offer no real details or even coherence to her 'confession?' They should have had her lie down and summoned a doctor, and perhaps quietly checked out Patrick's story if they were really so unaware of his existence at this point in the investigation, first thing they did from the account I read having taken from the girls' lists of all men associated with Meredith.

Now, however, if they thought they had 'evidence' Patrick wasn't at his bar due to his changing his SIMS card, plus what they thought was a 'woolly black hair' in Meredith's hands that might have been Patrick's, as well as the CCTV camera showing someone they 'hypothesized' might be the killer or involved with them, plus they knew Amanda had communicated with Patrick and said something that comes across as a definite future meeting that night, and they stuck it to Raffaele and he told them what they wanted to hear through confusion or whatever, then I could see them putting the screws to Amanda and freaking her out. She gives them just enough, as they're sure of the rest, which explains the exuberant and triumphant behavior as they honestly believed they'd captured their murderers and solved the case, thus had every reason to be proud.

Except they didn't, which is why they had to lie through their teeth in court and misdirect with endless repetitions of 'cartwheels' which they managed to do with the English-speaking press from what I've seen. Amanda's note, written directly after her arrest, refutes everything they said in court, and she wrote that to them in an attempt to explain as a 'gift' being she'd noticed they weren't really listening to her. To what end in those circumstances would she invent an entirely untrue story that just so happens to be indicative of a phenomena she was quite likely unaware of? Had she been aware it's quite probable she wouldn't have succumbed, and the girl who wrote that note strikes me as entirely too confused to be dissembling, nor should she want to, considering the only audience she could imagine would be receiving it.
 
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Very interesting, and essentially a confirmation of what most of us already thought. I think there might be a typo though - I've never herd of "row data" concerning DNA testing - I think that might be meant to read "raw data" - i.e. the electropherograms and supporting source data.

I've no doubt though that the groupthinkers among the pro-guilt crowd will try to rationalise this into some ludicrous form of conspiracy theory and/or huge PR-conducted lie...

ETA: I strongly suspect that Curt Knox's and Edda Mellas' July 4th court appearance will result in a similar adjournment as in Amanda Knox's slander case - i.e. an adjournment until the end of the year and the end of the first appeal in the murder trial. I also suspect that the motivation for such an adjournment is to save the courts time and money if the murder appeal results in acquittal.

Yes it is raw data. I think I can give an explanation for what is going on with Stefanoni. She performed DNA analyses and came up with some final results which she printed out and presented to the court. The defense asked for additional data which she did not provide and gave some excuses for why. In the appeal the judge got outside experts from La Sapienza in Rome. They looked at the bra clasp and knife and determined there was not enough DNA to retest (no surprise, since Stefanoni had already said that). They decided that they needed to take a closer look at what Stefanoni had done. They told Hellmann that they wanted the original raw data files from Stefanoni so they could check her work. He forwarded that , and she gave a vague answer which was essentially a refusal. They are no in a stalemate.
 
It's certainly been a long time since we heard the pro-guilt crowd spouting the nonsense that "barely had the interview chairs been set out" when Knox "blurted out" her accusation of Lumumba. I'd imagine that she probably broke down under coercion pressure at around 1.15-1.30am - some two hours into her interrogation.

And anyhow, let's not forget that none of the oral or written confession from 1.45am will be considered in the appeal. The fact that it was placed before the judicial panel in the first trial (via the concurrent Lumumba slander case) flies in the face of justice. My understanding is that Knox's "gift" statement from the following morning is admissible, but a reading of that easily shows that it's anything but a confession/accusation. It actually shows that Knox is confused and frightened about the allegations against her, and is already claiming that her original view of events (that she was at Sollecito's all night) is the truth - even though she can't square it with the police saying they have hard evidence placing her at the murder scene.

For reference, here is that written statement again. Judge for yourselves whether it's indicative of Knox's complicity in the murder, or even an attempt to implicate Lumumba:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html

I havent read that for a long time. Its taken on a new meaning now.

After following this case, the interrogation becomes more and more "common" as when she is asked, or attempting to create a vision, to imagine , to make something up because they have evidence that proves she was there....this is mentioned in numerous interrogation posts and articles.

I truly hope the Judge Hellman offers more time to review the Interrogation and how the confessions were born. Its very murky-water what happened that night.
Would it be possible for him to bring in all the Interrogators and interview them in private one at a time anonymously?

One way a fearful police interrogator could describe the interrogation honestly would be in private and anonymously. I dont feel any of them would tell the truth in public.

Who dares to speak up in Perugia against the police?
 
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