Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RandyN]

And now on the wild and crazy guys who find it necessary to write long and rambling open letters and address them to regular normal type people...I can only say this...and you know who you are....ahemmm rivet You should maybe stop because you are making yourselves look crazy and unhinged!

The latest comes from a "lawyer" who claims to be James Raper and he writes a rambling open letter to CNN Head Ken Jautz.

After reading this open letter I am reminded of other letters written in this style but with a screen name... does anyone here know who this is?

Its a real hoot...but it also scares me...is this my neighbor maybe?

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

 

[Mary_H]

Oh Golly Gee; that is a tremendously jolly good idea indeed.

Let's all rely totally on Amanda's ' recorded Court Testimony' with alacrity and assurance.

Let's not use innuendo, but instead use the 'recorded' words of an individual who has been caught in so many carefully documented unequivocally totally erroneous and contradictory 'best truths that she can think of', that she has been called by many who came in contact with her before during and after her unanimous conviction, as a being a classic pathological liar.

Incidentally, of course, the ' recorded (WoW) Court Testimony' that you fallaciously allocate so much unwarranted credence to is not given 'under oath' in Italian Courts.
In fact, testimony and a spontaneous statement from a defendant in Italian Courts is routinely expected to be anything but truthful.

But surely you knew that.

I knew that. It didn't make any difference in Amanda's case, though, because she was raised in the United States, where courtroom testimony is routinely expected to be truthful.

If Amanda had known how to play the game according to Italian rules, she would have done what Filomena and Laura did -- hired a lawyer the first day, so that she would never be subjected to an interrogation without one. In fact, it is my understanding that most Italians are reluctant even to call the police in the first place, so that might not have happened, either, had Amanda known how to act Italian.

And I'm with the others who have asked for evidence. I am not aware of one person who has come into contact with Amanda who has called her a pathological liar.

 

[Mary_H]

When I look at photo's of the 2 Italian gals bedroom, I am reminded of some of the many gals I've befriended and dated.

The photos of Filomena's messy bedroom and her cluttered table remind me of my good friend Rena's bedroom, always messy and cluttered, for my friend is always on the go. Be it boyz, snowboardin', surfin', or workin', she is busy and her room stays messy. We do share a laugh about it sometimes, hahaha...

The photo of Laura's neat bedroom reminded me of a gal named Arlene that I dated for many years, she being more of a clean freak, stay at home kinda gal.

Laura seems like a clean freak,
heck, on page 22 of author Candace Dempsey's book Murder in Italy, it says this:
"Laura believed in vigorous bathroom scouring and floor mopping, but wondered if she herself was perhaps to meticulous."

With both Filomena and Laura working in the same place, I had wondered why 1 room was so messy, but the other 1 so organized.*

Might it be because Filomena had a boyfriend, while Laura did not?
I've sometimes thought that maybe Filomena didn't spend as much time at home as did Laura and so she just did not care about her messy bedroom, just like my friend Rena does.

I recall reading that Filomena and the gals had been complaining about how sloppy Amanda was.

Golly gee, reading more in the book Murder in Italy, it said that according to the boyz downstairs, Filomena and Laura complained that they did more scrubbing than the 2 foreign girls combined. Meredith did a bit, but the Italian roommates said, Amanda did none. For that reason, Filomena had installed a cleaning chart only days before Halloween, and Amanda had already missed a cleaning session...

In the horrible murder we discuss,
Amanda is supposed to have meticuosly cleaned up every single trace of her own presence in Meredith Kercher's bedroom during this brutal, bloody murder. Did you see the LifeTime commercial where they created a scene where Amanda, Raffaele and Rudy were attacking Meredith? How could Amanda, as sloppy as she was said to be, have cleaned up all traces of herself, -(every single hair, fingerprint, DNA speck, everything!), but have left only traces of Rudy Guede in Meredith's bedroom on her body, her clothing, her purse?

I wonder...
RW

* - Thanks PMFer Stint7 for spell checkin' my posts.
Appreciate that, bro.

Great point, RWVBWL. Logic is not the strong suit of those who believe in guilt.

 

[Mary_H]

Ooh, I love Time in a Bottle … have to find out more about that artist, just recently discovered him when this song was played in a film.

Jim Croce was a little ahead of his time. Around 1973, two friends of mine bought tickets to a Jim Croce concert in Spokane, but it was cancelled due to low sales. When my friends went to the box office to get their refunds, they asked how many tickets had been sold. The answer was, "Two."

 

[Mary_H]

Barbie Nadeau described Sollecito, "He usually wears pastel colors, which criminal strategists say paints a picture of innocence." Elsewhere Catnip made a similar observation on June 8, 2010. I have previously been critical of some aspects of Barbie Nadeau's reporting in the case, especially relating to forensics. However, I must concede that of all of the reporters covering the case, she has the sharpest eye for fashion.

This is not the first time this subject has been discussed on this thread. Last November, Fine wrote:

.....Why does Raffaele refuse to testify? And not only refuse to testify, but comes to court dressed ---apparently by his sister, Vanessa--- wearing what Barbie calls "effeminate, non-threatening hues---lime green, baby-duckling yellow, bubble gum pink." (Angel Face, page 126.) Has our rugged kick-boxing Raffaele now become a ballet dancer, or a hair-dresser? If he's not willing to testify during the APPEAL trial---and answer the difficult questions that need answering and only he can answer---and he still pretends to be a bambina I see no hope for the APPEAL to succeed.

 

[Matthew Best]

So Kermit got a response from the CPJ:

Dear Kermit,

Joel Simon has asked me to respond on his behalf. We appreciate your bringing your concerns to our attention. As noted in the April 28 blog (http://cpj.org/blog/2011/04/cpj-responds-to-readers-comments-on-italy-letter.php), we stand by our reporting.

Kind regards,

Magnus Ag

Snerk.

 

[LondonJohn]

So Kermit got a response from the CPJ:





Snerk.

"Kermit" is making himself look increasingly angry, illogical and over-invested. I seriously worry about his state of mind - he makes the types of people who write the kind of "kick asylum seekers out, bring back hanging!" letters to the Daily Mail look calm and reasonable*. I wouldn't mind betting that the CPJ has print-outs of his "open letters" up on their office noticeboard to give the staff a decent laugh (although they'd probably need a 10ft x 10ft noticeboard to fit all his rants on there...).

In other news, I see that the court has today adjourned Knox's slander trial until November. Such a long delay (some 6 months) can only be in order to wait for the outcome of the first appeal. I also suspect that if Knox is acquitted in the murder appeal trial, the Perugia courts can save themselves some time and money by scrapping the slander trial.

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IoglB5NRxTo


PS: I see James Raper has drunk some of Kermit's Koolaid: his "open letter" to the head of CNN reads like a pastiche of Kermit's style, and I suspect will rightly receive the same sort of response as Kermit's rants to the CPJ: a short, dismissive acknowledgement, and a filing of the letter in the "nutters" folder...

 

[Bruce Fischer]

And now on the wild and crazy guys who find it necessary to write long and rambling open letters and address them to regular normal type people...I can only say this...and you know who you are....ahemmm rivet You should maybe stop because you are making yourselves look crazy and unhinged!

The latest comes from a "lawyer" who claims to be James Raper and he writes a rambling open letter to CNN Head Ken Jautz.

After reading this open letter I am reminded of other letters written in this style but with a screen name... does anyone here know who this is?

Its a real hoot...but it also scares me...is this my neighbor maybe?

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php

Raper includes every falsehood ever printed about this case in his rant. Everyone needs to keep in mind that James thanks Peter Quennell for helping him with the letter. After reading this open letter, even Quennell's loyal followers should see that their leader has no interest in the truth.

 

[Dan O.]

There are statements that Filomena had lodged two complaints to the landlord.

1. The front door lock was broken and had been so since mid Oct. The lock worked prior to that time by simply closing the door. But now it failed to latch itself and required a key to actually lock it in order to keep the door from blowing open on its own.

This is interesting since photos of that latch show it was intentionally jammed with a piece of wood. Do you have the source of this statement? I seemed to have missed it.

ETA: Mid October is also when Laura brought a handyman home to spend the night.

 

[pilot padron]

Pathological indeed from *several* (more than one) sources

....I am not aware of one person who has come into contact with Amanda who has called her a pathological liar.

Hi Mary:

Good to see you back in full force today.
May I just address your quote above which, uncharacteristically fails to meet your usual test of accuracy when arguing.

In so doing, may I preface the proof below by asking you (and your inevitable defenders) to:

1) spare us movement of the goal post from the *single quote* we are addressing
2) spare us all the usual wailing, whining, and gnashing of teeth about reliability of the Daily Mail.
Since a quick search shows you and defenders quite often quote the Daily Mail when it fits your purposes.
3) spare us and wasted cyberspace from usual sophistic parsing between 'pathological' and other adjectives used by *some* of sources to describe a chronic, compulsive, brazen cold blooded, talented and calculating liar.
4) spare us the usual vitriol from some here that is little more than an 'injustice' to the Italian Law Enforcement, or a tired conspiracy crutch since apparently some of the more 'injustice aligned afficianados' may *per haps* (sp) be subject themselves to litigation, and themselves guilty of some recent lying while arguing.

Fair Enough??
Here are just a quick sampling of 'cites' about Knox and lying.
(More are easily available to more thorough time consuming search but for my proof to you here, unnecessary irrelevant and redundant)

1) The lead Italian investigator into Meredith Kercher's murder said shortly after starting his investigation that Knox was a pathological liar.
telegraph.co.uk/news is just one of several of this source


2) Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who describes the real Knox: as being 'narcissistic, aggressive, manipulative, transgressive, with a tendency to dominate'.Not only was she 'easily given to disliking people she disagreed with' but was a 'talented and calculating liar'.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ile-liar-narcissist-killer.html#ixzz1MbgRrYUV

3) Party-loving Amanda Knox has already been branded a compulsive liar by police
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nsists-wasnt-house-horrors.html#ixzz1Mbh7H7Aq

4) I don’t know whether Amanda Knox murdered her roommate, but I know for sure she’s a brazen cold-blooded liar who ruined the man who gave her the anchor of a job in her erratic life in Perugia, Italy. But I also know that murderers are good liars… Look at O.J. Simpson!
http://alexengwete.blogspot.com/2009/12/convicted-murderer-amanda-knox-is-cold.html


5) Carlo Pacelli described Knox as a "talented and calculated liar" who had deliberately gone out of her way to frame Lumumba:
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/kfaugbgbeyid/rss2/#ixzz1Mbi8Ynfu
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...uestion-is-suspect-Amanda-Knox-the-devil.html

 

[LondonJohn]

Hi Mary:

Good to see you back in full force today.
May I just address your quote above which, uncharacteristically fails to meet your usual test of accuracy when arguing.

In so doing, may I preface the proof below by asking you (and your inevitable defenders) to:

1) spare us movement of the goal post from the *single quote* we are addressing
2) spare us all the usual wailing, whining, and gnashing of teeth about reliability of the Daily Mail.
Since a quick search shows you and defenders quite often quote the Daily Mail when it fits your purposes.
3) spare us and wasted cyberspace from usual sophistic parsing between 'pathological' and other adjectives used by *some* of sources to describe a chronic, compulsive, brazen cold blooded, talented and calculating liar.
4) spare us the usual vitriol from some here that is little more than an 'injustice' to the Italian Law Enforcement, or a tired conspiracy crutch since apparently some of the more 'injustice aligned afficianados' may *per haps* (sp) be subject themselves to litigation, and themselves guilty of some recent lying while arguing.

Fair Enough??
Here are just a quick sampling of 'cites' about Knox and lying.
(More are easily available to more thorough time consuming search but for my proof to you here, unnecessary irrelevant and redundant)

1) The lead Italian investigator into Meredith Kercher's murder said shortly after starting his investigation that Knox was a pathological liar.
telegraph.co.uk/news is just one of several of this source


2) Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who describes the real Knox: as being 'narcissistic, aggressive, manipulative, transgressive, with a tendency to dominate'.Not only was she 'easily given to disliking people she disagreed with' but was a 'talented and calculating liar'.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ile-liar-narcissist-killer.html#ixzz1MbgRrYUV

3) Party-loving Amanda Knox has already been branded a compulsive liar by police
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nsists-wasnt-house-horrors.html#ixzz1Mbh7H7Aq

4) I don’t know whether Amanda Knox murdered her roommate, but I know for sure she’s a brazen cold-blooded liar who ruined the man who gave her the anchor of a job in her erratic life in Perugia, Italy. But I also know that murderers are good liars… Look at O.J. Simpson!
http://alexengwete.blogspot.com/2009/12/convicted-murderer-amanda-knox-is-cold.html


5) Carlo Pacelli described Knox as a "talented and calculated liar" who had deliberately gone out of her way to frame Lumumba:
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/kfaugbgbeyid/rss2/#ixzz1Mbi8Ynfu
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...uestion-is-suspect-Amanda-Knox-the-devil.html

Perhaps what Mary should have written (and maybe what she meant to say, but that's not for me to judge), is this:

"I am not aware of one person who does not have some sort of direct motivation for denigrating her personality who has come into contact with Amanda who has called her a pathological liar"


PS: I wonder if perchance you've had the opportunity to read Knox's "gift" statement again, and to reconsider your assessment of it?

 

[Rhea]

Here are just a quick sampling of 'cites' about Knox and lying.
(More are easily available to more thorough time consuming search but for my proof to you here, unnecessary irrelevant and redundant)

1) The lead Italian investigator into Meredith Kercher's murder said shortly after starting his investigation that Knox was a pathological liar.
telegraph.co.uk/news is just one of several of this source


2) Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini who describes the real Knox: as being 'narcissistic, aggressive, manipulative, transgressive, with a tendency to dominate'.Not only was she 'easily given to disliking people she disagreed with' but was a 'talented and calculating liar'.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...ile-liar-narcissist-killer.html#ixzz1MbgRrYUV

3) Party-loving Amanda Knox has already been branded a compulsive liar by police
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nsists-wasnt-house-horrors.html#ixzz1Mbh7H7Aq

4) I don’t know whether Amanda Knox murdered her roommate, but I know for sure she’s a brazen cold-blooded liar who ruined the man who gave her the anchor of a job in her erratic life in Perugia, Italy. But I also know that murderers are good liars… Look at O.J. Simpson!
http://alexengwete.blogspot.com/2009/12/convicted-murderer-amanda-knox-is-cold.html


5) Carlo Pacelli described Knox as a "talented and calculated liar" who had deliberately gone out of her way to frame Lumumba:
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/kfaugbgbeyid/rss2/#ixzz1Mbi8Ynfu
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...uestion-is-suspect-Amanda-Knox-the-devil.html

I agree with LondonJohn, what Mary obviously meant is people from Amanda's previous life; class mates, teachers, acquaintances, friends …

If Amanda was a pathological liar, there is NO WAY that this would have gone unnoticed during her previous life, if you are a pathological liar, you don't just suddenly start for the time span of a murder investigation and stop again after, if you're a pathological liar, people in your enviroment know … yet NOT ONE person came forward to say Amanda was a liar …

Rudy Guede is a pathological liar, his adoptive family thought so and he concedes it even himself in his diary.

Anyway, the guilt side is circular reasoning again now, most of those people quoted above believe Amanda to be a brutal killer, and if she is a killer, then she told many lies …

If she is innocent though, she didn't tell lies, instead the so called "lies" are simply result of manipulation, confusion, and pressure to accuse Lumumba.

So it's always circular reasoning on the guilt side; we have to presume she is guilty for the so called "lies" to work as lies. Because if she is innocent, all those things dont' work as lies at all, but are simply result of manipulation and coercion.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the DNA evidence was crucial to some

From an AP story on the case, "During the first trial, in the absence of a clear motive for the brutal killing, DNA evidence was crucial. Prosecutors maintained that Knox's DNA was on the knife handle, Kercher's DNA on the blade, and Sollecito's on the clasp of Kercher's bra." I also note that James Raper's open letter discusses the DNA evidence. Of course, everyone has to assess the relative importance of the DNA evidence versus the break-in (or anything else) for himself or herself, but the notion that the DNA profiling was entirely unimportant is impossible to sustain.

I have updated my blog to include a discussion of Dr. Stefanoni's apparent refusal to turn over documentation to the two independent scientists, including additional information on how such files are used.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

she-devil

Hi Mary:


4) I don’t know whether Amanda Knox murdered her roommate, but I know for sure she’s a brazen cold-blooded liar who ruined the man who gave her the anchor of a job in her erratic life in Perugia, Italy. But I also know that murderers are good liars… Look at O.J. Simpson!
http://alexengwete.blogspot.com/2009/12/convicted-murderer-amanda-knox-is-cold.html


5) Carlo Pacelli described Knox as a "talented and calculated liar" who had deliberately gone out of her way to frame Lumumba:
Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/world/kfaugbgbeyid/rss2/#ixzz1Mbi8Ynfu
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...uestion-is-suspect-Amanda-Knox-the-devil.html

pilot padron,

In the link for number 4 above Alex Engwete (bless his heart) wrote, "But I’m particularly outraged at Amanda Knox for ruining the life of a Congolese man, Diya Patrick Lumumba, who 'is believed to be related to murdered Congolese prime minister Patrice Lumumba.'" I would evaluate the rest of his blog with this error in mind.

In the book "Murder in Italy" Ms. Dempsey reported that a relative of Patrice Lumumba made it clear that Patrick is unrelated to him or his family. My understanding is that Patrick himself told this little fib at one time or another, and I resolutely refuse to condemn him for it. He is a businessman, and I am sure that such a tale was good for business. However, I ask that everyone take it into account before we judge Raffaele or Amanda too harshly for any lies that they may have told. As for Carlo Pacelli, he called Amanda a she-devil, language so over-the-top that I am surprised that you would willingly bring his name into this heretofore serious conversation. Personally, I would prefer a list of Amanda's putative lies, rather than a list of people who called her a liar, especially when some of them had a reason for doing so.

 

[Rhea]

Amanda Obsession

What I find interesting also is how the guilt side constantly claims that innocentisti are somehow obsessed with / attracted to Amanda. Yet, who is constantly posting pictures of Amanda on their site?

http://perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=83795&sid=918ca3e29bd8e26e55df6463c7ee68c9#p83795

When there is a new court day, they are the first to demand; "has anybody got pics?"

There is hardly ever a picture of Amanda or Raffaele posted on the Injustice in Perugia forum, I don't even remember ever seeing one except the small one on the top. Yet on PMF, like constantly, it's full of pictures of Amanda, they need to look at her all the time.

So, the projection, very interesting …

 

[Rhea]

How bout this for a pitiful whine for nothing better to 'argue' about by one of the lesser talented personalities over there....
***********
"What I find interesting also is how the guilt side constantly claims that innocentisti are somehow obsessed with / attracted to Amanda. Yet, who is constantly posting pictures of Amanda on their site?
viewtop...7ee68c9#p83795
*************

Thank you Stint7, you just perfectly proved my point;

Anyone see any pictures of Amanda's brief appearance in Court yesterday.

http://www.perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=88364#p88364


It's actually not that there's nothing to argue about for lesser talented personalities like me; we've just had a discussion about the issue recently with "Alt" who was insinuating that people on the innocent side are sexually attracted to Amanda, so I wanted to make this point, and it's true isn't it?

------

PS: I was completely aware by the way, that you've might very well have written that after my post, Stint7, I still thought it's funny either way, because on PMF people constantly are asking for pictures each court day, so the pretending is totally in sync with the usual practices …

I also think it's interesting how you have to divide the world in good and bad people or better / lesser people, and so of course it comes as no surprise you've degraded me now from a lesser "talented" personality to a "lesser personality".

 

[RWVBWL]

Oh my goodness, Rhea, that is too funny!
I am simply laughin' my, well you get the idea, right now!

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Pilot! 'Would you like to play a game?'

Let's call it 'Liar's Club.' You post a 'lie' you think you have found from Raffaele or Amanda, and I show you how it is probably just a mistake, misunderstanding due to language or mistranslation, and is meaningless besides. Then I post something the police told the press and then evidence that it wasn't true and they should have known it. Also that it was of actual importance as it was presented to a court as 'evidence' of her guilt, or served to incriminate her in the eyes of the public and suggest she was a liar.

'But wait, there's more!' The second round will consist of determining whether that 'error' was due to them either lying or simply being incompetent. Unlike you having to try to mine 'lies' from fluffy insignificant statements without remorse, I will allow the possibility that they were simply 'beyond stupid' about it, and you get to make that case! I recall you once thought that an 'interesting' turn of a phrase, and at that time I was trying to construct a scenario defending them! It's your turn now, I am through trying to save these little piggies from market, I want to see them fry like bacon!

So let us begin. Go ahead and post a 'lie' from Amanda, we'll start there.

"Con permiso, mon capitaine. The hall is rented, the orchestra engaged. It's now time to see if you can dance."

After gettin' some shut eye last night, I wondered, as I stood on the beach in a steady rain this mornin', if PilotPadron had decided to come out and play?

Alas, though he stopped by here at the JREF for a moment today, there was no such luck...

Come on PP,
as an old Offspring song goes,
Heeey, come out and play!

 

[moije2]

guilters and sexual obsession

Didn't the people from law office that Rudy broke into also claim that someone used the fridge and bathroom?

What I find interesting also is how the guilt side constantly claims that innocentisti are somehow obsessed with / attracted to Amanda. Yet, who is constantly posting pictures of Amanda on their site?








When there is a new court day, they are the first to demand; "has anybody got pics?"



There is hardly ever a picture of Amanda or Raffaele posted on the Injustice in Perugia forum, I don't even remember ever seeing one except the small one on the top. Yet on PMF, like constantly, it's full of pictures of Amanda, they need to look at her all the time.

So, the projection, very interesting …

The obsession by the prosecution and in turn the guilters has been sexual in nature. Without their sex fantasies this case would not exist. It is the entire genesis of the story. And the guilters try to project their sexual preoccupation onto the innocenters when in fact it had been our battle from day one to dispel and disengage this thinking.

At the end of the day, when this case is resolved - hopefully in favor of AK and RS - the lasting story will be of the sexual obsessions and off shoots, along with cultural stereotyping and misunderstandings and not evidentiary issues such as DNA collection and analysis or which way glass shatters and falls etc. Those are all driven by an almost primordial desire to get the witch...

 

[Rhea]

The obsession by the prosecution and in turn the guilters has been sexual in nature. Without their sex fantasies this case would not exist. It is the entire genesis of the story. And the guilters try to project their sexual preoccupation onto the innocenters when in fact it had been our battle from day one to dispel and disengage this thinking.

At the end of the day, when this case is resolved - hopefully in favor of AK and RS - the lasting story will be of the sexual obsessions and off shoots, along with cultural stereotyping and misunderstandings and not evidentiary issues such as DNA collection and analysis or which way glass shatters and falls etc. Those are all driven by an almost primordial desire to get the witch...

Yes, absolutely, from the very first days on Mignini and his people became occupied with theories of sex-games and orgies gone wrong. When the murder happened, I remember this is what I heard; satanic rituals and sex orgies. Two years later when I studied the case I realized that the sex orgies were happening in the minds of the prosecutors only.

Yet Mignini called Amanda sex-obsessed, it's grotesque almost …