Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth.

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So I assume you believe if Joshephus (who some skeptics in here believe was wrong to say Moses lived in Egypt) didn't record a Roman/Judean government event (that would of happened 40 years before his birth) than it would have been impossible for that government event to have occurred 40 years before his birth without him having a record of it happening.


No, the argument is that there is no evidence anywhere for such a census. As has been pointed out, records of other censuses survive. Christian apologists have spent decades, perhaps centuries, trying to turn up evidence that supports the NT. They have failed to find any evidence for this census.
 
For the purpose of this thread there is no logic only facts.

Facts

There is lots of evidence for many Roman census's

The Romans were detailed record keepers...

Then you would think there would be a lot of signatures of Julius Caesar (the most powerful man in the world) around, but there are none.
 
I changed my mind, I'll comment.


Well tickle me grandmother! What a surprise.

:rolleyes:


So your logic is if Joshephus (who some skeptics in here believe was wrong to say Moses lived in Egypt) didn't record a Roman/Judean government event (that would of happened 40 years before his bitth) than it would have been impossible for that government event to have occurred 40 years before his
birth without him having a record of it happening.


No, DOC, that's nobody's logic at all. It's the most poorly-constructed strawman this side of the Judean Hills.

Nobody at all, except for the author of the gospel attributed to Sir Luke, recorded the census of which we speak.

Nobody at all, DOC.

Given that the whole idea of taking a census is to record stuff, and given that the Romans are noted as mad keen record keepers, the only logical conclusion is that the damned census didn't happen.

Your comical attempts to avoid admitting this will be talked about for years, DOC. Congratulations.


By the way, who the hell is Joshephus?


And when the Romans destoyed Jerusalem in 70 AD you have to wonder what happeend to any possible records of a Roman/Judean census that happened over 70 years earlier . . .


Don't try to obfuscate things, DOC, by trying to pretend that Sir Luke's census may have been a local Judean affair.

This is the actual verse we're talking about, in case you've forgotten:


Luke 2:1

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Cæesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed.​

Since it was Augustus who was supposed to have ordered the census, it's a fair bet that he would have wanted to see the results, and therefore have required them to be delivered up in Rome, wouldn't you say?


. . . and over 90 years after Josephus started to write his Antiquities.


I don't think I'm following your arithmetic here. Are you saying that Josephus was writing Antiquities in 20 BCE?

That doesn't sound right.


Don't you think it just might be possible that thje non-Christian Josephus (who did not have access to the oral Christian tradition of that period 90 years earlier) just might not of had any written records of what happened in Judea over 90 years earlier.


What the dickens does the "oral Christian tradition" have to do with the very-much written down results of a Roman census?
 
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Then you would think there would be a lot of signatures of Julius Caesar (the most powerful man in the world) around, but there are none.


Perhaps if we ever have a thread called "Evidence for why we know Julius Cæsar's biographers told the truth" you'll be able to bring this sad little mantra of yours up, and we can laugh at you all over again.

In the meantime, however, no matter how many times you repeat it, it will not magically turn into evidence for Sir Luke's phantom census.
 
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Now you've got me wondering about Bathsheba. Maybe Solomon was adopted.
Bathsheba was a babe as evidenced by the Holy canon of the Pixies specifically the book of Doolittle 6

DEAD

You crazy babe, Bathsheba
I wancha
You're suffocating, you need
A good shed
I'm tired of living, Sheba
So gimme

Dead (x2)

We're apin' rapin' takin'
Catharsis
You get torn down and I get
Erected
My blood is working but my
My heart is

Dead (x2)

Dead

Hey
Whaddyah know?
You're lovely
Tan belly
Starting to grow

Uriah hit the crapper, the crapper
Uriah hit the crapper, the crapper
Uriah hit the crapper, the crapper
 
Bathsheba was a babe as evidenced by the Holy canon of the Pixies specifically the book of Doolittle 6

DEAD

You crazy babe, Bathsheba
I wancha
You're suffocating, you need
A good shed
I'm tired of living, Sheba
So gimme

Dead (x2)

We're apin' rapin' takin'
Catharsis
You get torn down and I get
Erected
My blood is working but my
My heart is

Dead (x2)

Dead

Hey
Whaddyah know?
You're lovely
Tan belly
Starting to grow

Uriah hit the crapper, the crapper
Uriah hit the crapper, the crapper
Uriah hit the crapper, the crapper

OK, that makes as much sense as DOC's posts.
 
And when the Romans destoyed Jerusalem in 70 AD you have to wonder what happeend to any possible records of a Roman/Judean census that happened over 70 years earlier, and over 90 years after Josephus started to write his Antiquities. Don't you think it just might be possible that the non-Christian Josephus (who did not have access to the oral Christian tradition of that period 90 years earlier) just might not of had any written records of what happened in Judea over 90 years earlier and after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.
So you're going from "the evidence of a Herodean census may have been destroyed" to "the census might have happened" to "the census happened". What's the name of that fallacy? And are you somehow arguing that only Christians had oral traditions? :rolleyes:

Then you would think there would be a lot of signatures of Julius Caesar (the most powerful man in the world) around, but there are none.
Silly argument. Authenticating documents with a signature is a modern invention. Ancients and medieval people used signet rings.

And what do you want to argue with that? We have ample evidence that Caesar existed. His own writings, to begin with, about the Gallic and the Civil Wars. Corroborating archaeological evidence (but not Alesia - I don't know where Alesia is! ;)). Writings of contemporaries, like Cicero, which mention Caesar. Writings of later historians. The conquest of Gaul - why does France now speak a Romance language? Coins of Caesar. And so on and so forth.

Nobody at all, except for the author of the gospel attributed to Sir Luke, recorded the census of which we speak.

Nobody at all, DOC.

Given that the whole idea of taking a census is to record stuff, and given that the Romans are noted as mad keen record keepers, the only logical conclusion is that the damned census didn't happen.

[...]

Don't try to obfuscate things, DOC, by trying to pretend that Sir Luke's census may have been a local Judean affair.

Well, there is evidence there was a census by Quirinius - at the time Luke mentions - but indeed, as you rightly note, not Empire-wide. Josephus writes about a census instituted by Quirinius in Syria and Judaea in 6/7 AD, and about the revolt of Judas the Galilean that was triggered by that. And it makes perfectly sense: Judaea was just incorporated into the Empire as part of the Syrian province, so the Romans had to conduct a local census for tax purposes.

So, Luke was probably right in describing a census by Quirinius - but he was wrong in describing it as Empire-wide, and contradicts Matthew in associating it with Jesus' birth.

In contrast, Matthew's census by Herod is made up out of whole cloth. He has Herod the Great undertake a census in Judaea. There is no corroborating evidence at all for that. And it runs counter to what we know about Jewish culture at the time:
A pestilence appears to have occurred shortly after the census, and confirmed the people in the superstition, common among primitive nations, against being numbered. In the Biblical text David's action in ordering a census is regarded as sinful.
Herod was a smart ruler, who managed to regain nominal independence for all parts of the former Hasmonean kingdom. He was raised in the (Jewish) culture, so why would he antagonize his subjects with holding a census? He had other means of collecting taxes.

Quirinius, on the other hand, was a Roman career politician who spent 3 years here, 4 years there, and would have known much less about local culture, and just followed Roman ways of administration.

Now you've got me wondering about Bathsheba. Maybe Solomon was adopted.
No, he was brought to the mountains to be killed, then found and raised by a shepherd. As an adult, he came back to court, killed his father and married his mother.

Oh sorry, wrong myth. :p
 
Well, there is evidence there was a census by Quirinius - at the time Luke mentions - but indeed, as you rightly note, not Empire-wide. Josephus writes about a census instituted by Quirinius in Syria and Judaea in 6/7 AD, and about the revolt of Judas the Galilean that was triggered by that. And it makes perfectly sense: Judaea was just incorporated into the Empire as part of the Syrian province, so the Romans had to conduct a local census for tax purposes.

So, Luke was probably right in describing a census by Quirinius - but he was wrong in describing it as Empire-wide, and contradicts Matthew in associating it with Jesus' birth.

In contrast, Matthew's census by Herod is made up out of whole cloth. He has Herod the Great undertake a census in Judaea. There is no corroborating evidence at all for that. And it runs counter to what we know about Jewish culture at the time:


Thanks heaps for this, and indeed for all of your contributions.

I hope you're not too dismayed at DOC's intransigence because the rest of us are here to actually learn stuff and it's a pleasure to have someone as knowledgeable as yourself join the 'teaching' staff.

:)
 
So I assume you believe if Joshephus (who some skeptics in here believe was wrong to say Moses lived in Egypt) didn't record a Roman/Judean government event (that would of happened 40 years before his birth) than it would have been impossible for that government event to have occurred 40 years before his birth without him having a record of it happening.


And when the Romans destoyed Jerusalem in 70 AD you have to wonder what happeend to any possible records of a Roman/Judean census that happened over 70 years earlier, and over 90 years after Josephus started to write his Antiquities. Don't you think it just might be possible that the non-Christian Josephus (who did not have access to the oral Christian tradition of that period 90 years earlier) just might not of had any written records of what happened in Judea over 90 years earlier and after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD.
DOC, where would have Luke, who wrote the gospel in ~85AD, obtained information for this unrecorded Census?
Am I to believe that ONLY HE had special access to this information? And if he did, why didn't he actually write about THAT census and not about the Census of Quirinius?

The problem here, DOC, is that the the text is clear about this. Luke Made it up. We know it wasn't the Quirinius census. SO even if there was another census (which we have NO evidence for), it would still indicate that Luke lied about it.
 
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You didn't recognize him without his' random apos'trophes': Jos'hephus'

By the way, doc, it's' "have": would have, could have, s'hould have, might have

Examples:
Jos'ephus' could have known...
Mos'es' might have lived...
Quinnius' would have gone...

Thank you for this. I can put up with the lack of question marks, but "would of" makes me tear my hair out.

DOC: "Of" is NOT A VERB!

But if you like apostrophe's' you could use "woul'd've,'" "c'oul'd've," and "sho'uld've.'"
 
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