The Osama DNA thread

[McHrozni]

You seemed to misunderstood what I was saying I didn't need, I wasn't talking about the chromatograph traces. I meant there was no need to release the actual genotypes of each loci, since this would have privacy implications.

What privacy implications would it have?

Well here is your first howler as STR are is just a subset of VNTR. STR is the new terminology for microsatellite. In terms of genotyping efficiency the differences are trivial and I would expect that the FBI would just be using standard commercial kits that would mostly contain STR loci, although perhaps they might include SSRs. There is no difference in equipment or reagents, the only difference would be the primer chosen.

The main operational difference between them is that VNTR is cheaper, but only useful for strong and relatively pure samples. They had a pure, strong sample available however, which is why I put that one in as well. It's also the one that could be done on an aircraft carrier if you had a reason to do so.

I am not sure how much buffeting or vibration an aircraft carrier today gets and if that would interfer. In any case I am confident, given the long period since the Carl Vinson has been state side, they did not fly an ABI 3000 series out there.

Probably not. So?

Probably a bit less, but the samples have to reach a genotyping facility first. If it wasn't Bagram it would almost certainly be the US.

I put in 12 hours as not to rush things. It could be done in 6 hours or even less.

Which means the results were annouced before the test were completed. In fact a successful DNA match was announced much sooner than 12 hours from leaving Abbottabad.

Really. Please point to that timeline.

To show the sort of detail in regards to genotyping I would like to know what kit was used.
Eg. an ABI Identifiler kit using the following markers
15 STR loci (CSF1P0, D2S1338, D3S1358, D5S818, D7S820, D8S1179, D13S317, D16S539, D18S51, D19S433, D21S11, FGA, TH01, TPOX, vWA)

or a Promega PowerPlex 16 kit using
sixteen loci (fifteen STR loci and Amelogenin): Penta E, D18S51, D21S11, TH01, D3S1358, FGA, TPOX, D8S1179, vWA, Amelogenin, Penta D, CSF1PO, D16S539, D7S820, D13S317 and D5S818

Then you would want to know what relatives and the degree of relatedness (names not needed) and the number of markers shared.

I'll give you a clue: which kit does the FBI use?
No reason to make things more complicated than they need to be, eh?

You also need to know which markers are shared and what is their value. Nothing a standard test wouldn't provide of course, but you said you only needed the number of markers shared, which is wrong.

If DoD really did set up a genotyping facility on the Carl Vinson then I would like them to come out and say it. It would be the first time a genotyping facility would have be deployed in such a way for a one of genotyping.

I'm not saying that's what happened, just that it would be possible to do so, in order to illustrate just how flimsy your excuses to jaq are.

Will you please tell me what the last paragraph of this article is saying?
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalp...bama-to-national-security-team-its-a-go-.html

McHrozni

 

[000063]

I didn't think it was of particular interest. It is of course easy enough to fake a series of DNA profiles. It might be harder to fake a genotyping facility. However, why bother to fake anything when a senior government official can just say "we did it and in super-record time too" and everyone is too afraid to ask questions.

That is not "super record time".

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/02/news/la-heb-osama-bin-laden-dna-testing-20110502

Several hours.

I'm pretty sure you could set up a fake testing facility in a day or so. In fact, you could just move one of the ones they have used before. Y'know, like they did used with Saddam.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2003/12/61614

a lab that has long been preparing to identify a particular person like Saddam could probably do it even faster[than 24 hours], he said.

Article dates from 2003. If it was possible then, why wouldn't it be possible now? And why would anyone use such an obvious lie, assuming it were a lie?

 

[McHrozni]

Article dates from 2003. If it was possible then, why wouldn't it be possible now? And why would anyone use such an obvious lie, assuming it were a lie?

Using logic is considered unfair as far as rabbit is concerned

McHrozni

 

[ladmo]

Or, maybe they brought one on board the USS Carl Vinson for this purpose? Or maybe they flew the sample back on an F-18 so as to get it here very quickly.

I mean, there could be other options, if you open your mind and think outside of the conspiracy bubble for a minute or two.

Why hurry the process? The man they are attempting to ID is already dead and it was pronounced to the world...

Unless they already had a sample of his DNA... how would they know it is him or some other relative?

 

[RedIbis]

McHrnozni, I can assure you I can talk tech on these matters far better than you.



You seemed to misunderstood what I was saying I didn't need, I wasn't talking about the chromatograph traces. I meant there was no need to release the actual genotypes of each loci, since this would have privacy implications.



Well here is your first howler as STR are is just a subset of VNTR. STR is the new terminology for microsatellite. In terms of genotyping efficiency the differences are trivial and I would expect that the FBI would just be using standard commercial kits that would mostly contain STR loci, although perhaps they might include SSRs. There is no difference in equipment or reagents, the only difference would be the primer chosen.

While the equipment is not madly expensive (ie a few hundred thousands), it is not normally or ever deployed in a mobile deployment (although there are some technologies in prototype that could be - however firms involved have denied any involvement saying it is too early to be testing in the field and certainly not in such an operation).

One of the issues that makes an aircraft deployment unlikely is the fact that capillary electrophoresis is (or used to be anyway) quite sensitive to level and vibration. Choose a selection of links from the ABI site to satisfy your curiosity on this matter
http://www.google.com.au/search?cli...equencer+vibrations&pbx=1&fp=6ed37e06fcb306d6

I am not sure how much buffeting or vibration an aircraft carrier today gets and if that would interfer. In any case I am confident, given the long period since the Carl Vinson has been state side, they did not fly an ABI 3000 series out there.

Probably a bit less, but the samples have to reach a genotyping facility first. If it wasn't Bagram it would almost certainly be the US. Which means the results were annouced before the test were completed. In fact a successful DNA match was announced much sooner than 12 hours from leaving Abbottabad.



Yes, but I do appreciate your hamfisted attempt at trolling.

To show the sort of detail in regards to genotyping I would like to know what kit was used.
Eg. an ABI Identifiler kit using the following markers
15 STR loci (CSF1P0, D2S1338, D3S1358, D5S818, D7S820, D8S1179, D13S317, D16S539, D18S51, D19S433, D21S11, FGA, TH01, TPOX, vWA)

or a Promega PowerPlex 16 kit using
sixteen loci (fifteen STR loci and Amelogenin): Penta E, D18S51, D21S11, TH01, D3S1358, FGA, TPOX, D8S1179, vWA, Amelogenin, Penta D, CSF1PO, D16S539, D7S820, D13S317 and D5S818

Then you would want to know what relatives and the degree of relatedness (names not needed) and the number of markers shared.

However, in fact all I want is the head of a lab to speak up and say they genotyped it, when and where, and they stake their credibility on the results.

If DoD really did set up a genotyping facility on the Carl Vinson then I would like them to come out and say it. It would be the first time a genotyping facility would have be deployed in such a way for a one of genotyping.

Good post. I was curious about the logistics of this.

 

[triforcharity]

Why hurry the process? The man they are attempting to ID is already dead and it was pronounced to the world...

Unless they already had a sample of his DNA... how would they know it is him or some other relative?

Why not? This was huge news!

And from what I understand, is that they used a technique that would identify him using his family's DNA. Meaning, they compared his DNA markers to known family, and they matched.

 

[Debaser]

I heard on the radio that a BBC journalist to a vox pop of 50 people in an Abbottabad market and only 1 person thought they had killed bin Ladin - and he probably worked for the ISI.

He or she could probably have done a vox pop in Islamabad and got the same ratio saying that every problem or disaster that has befallen Pakistan during its existence (and 9/11, of course) was a Hindu-Zionist plot.

Pakistan is a nation of conspiracists; you'd fit right in. Though to you, presumably they'd only ever be half right.

 

[TruthersLie]

Why hurry the process? The man they are attempting to ID is already dead and it was pronounced to the world...

Unless they already had a sample of his DNA... how would they know it is him or some other relative?

They had a sample of his sister and childrens DNA.

With those simple DNA markers, they can identify that the person they are testing is 99.999% likely to be a close family member.

How many 50+ year olds (who look 70) are missing from the bin laden family? Simple process of elimination.

 

[000063]

Why hurry the process? The man they are attempting to ID is already dead and it was pronounced to the world...

Unless they already had a sample of his DNA... how would they know it is him or some other relative?

They had a sample from his dead sister.

Why is it that you lot just jump straight to doubting without taking thirty seconds to Google?

 

[ladmo]

They had a sample from his dead sister.

Why is it that you lot just jump straight to doubting without taking thirty seconds to Google?

...what was determined is that a bin laden was shot. The DNA test does not determine it was Osama unless there was a previous sample of Osama for matching.

000063, no purpose is served in attempting to act superior.

 

[McHrozni]

...what was determined is that a bin laden was shot. The DNA test does not determine it was Osama unless there was a previous sample of Osama for matching.

It was either Osama, or one of his full brothers that was shot. That's what DNA can tell you with virtual certainty.

How many full brothers (same father, same mother) did he have?
Clue: the number starts with "z".

McHrozni

 

[ladmo]

It was either Osama, or one of his full brothers that was shot. That's what DNA can tell you with virtual certainty.

How many full brothers (same father, same mother) did he have?
Clue: the number starts with "z".

McHrozni

I was not aware that Osama bin laden had any full siblings.

 

[dafydd]

I was not aware that Osama bin laden had any full siblings.

His half brother has or had a perfume on the market.

 

[Grassy Knowlington]

His half brother has or had a perfume on the market.

Did it bomb?

 

[000063]

...what was determined is that a bin laden was shot. The DNA test does not determine it was Osama unless there was a previous sample of Osama for matching.

Wrong. They had his sister's DNA. That's enough for an ID. In fact, call your local hospital and ask them if it's possible. Or the nearest forensics professor or technican. They'll confirm it.

 

[ladmo]

His half brother has or had a perfume on the market.

I don't think a half sibling's DNA can provide 99% probability. It was my understanding that a parent is needed if half-siblings were the only genetic markers being used.

 

[ladmo]

Wrong. They had his sister's DNA. That's enough for an ID. In fact, call your local hospital and ask them if it's possible. Or the nearest forensics professor or technican. They'll confirm it.

Actually, I just did something very similar to what you suggested. I contacted an Amniocentesis Testing Lab... since my cousin works there. She connected me with a Resident Staffer and he said in order to capture a high probability... a parent is required... see post 116. If you have information to the contrary, I am all ears and willing to learn.

 

[000063]

Actually, I just did something very similar to what you suggested. I contacted an Amniocentesis Testing Lab... since my cousin works there. She connected me with a Resident Staffer and he said in order to capture a high probability... a parent is required... see post 116. If you have information to the contrary, I am all ears and willing to learn.

Point for you. I went back and found the source, an ABC News story from shortly after OBL's death. I had trouble finding it, but I did find one about "multiple relatives". Then I found this.

http://www.chromosomechronicles.com/2011/05/13/osamas-dna-and-its-limitations/

If that's correct, they couldn't have ID'd him exactly, but they could confirm that his sister was the sibling to the person they shot and took the sample from. Unless there's another male bin Laden family member living with Osama's wife and kids in an Al-Qaeda owned compound, it's pretty conclusive.

Also, I found this article about a cute poodle. I don't know how.

 

[McHrozni]

Actually, I just did something very similar to what you suggested. I contacted an Amniocentesis Testing Lab... since my cousin works there. She connected me with a Resident Staffer and he said in order to capture a high probability... a parent is required... see post 116. If you have information to the contrary, I am all ears and willing to learn.

That's true, siblings can have extremely different profiles and it is very difficult to establish the relationship using DNA to a high probability.

That said, 99,9% isn't a very high probability for DNA matches at all. I believe the FBI standard is a match of 1 in 600,000,000 (~99,99999983%) - double US population - to claim DNA came from that individual using DNA alone. Some countries have even stricter standards. In this case, it could require an even higher probability match.

That said, he wasn't identified based on DNA alone, so this argument is moot. The chance that someone other than him, of his age, would live in that compound and share his DNA is essetially zero.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

I don't think a half sibling's DNA can provide 99% probability. It was my understanding that a parent is needed if half-siblings were the only genetic markers being used.

Identification of maternal half-siblings would be enhanced using mtDNA, whereas identification of fathernal half-brothers could be assisted using the Y-chromosome profile.

Other cases would be very difficult to establish to a meaningful degree, unless they shared an extremely rare marker, which is possible though, obviously, rare.

McHrozni