Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[little grey rabbit]

One guy telling a lie doesn't prove everyone else is lying.

So if the holocaust was a hoax who built all the V2 rockets Werner von Braun sent to London?

Slave or conscripted labor. Amongst them some Jews, but by no means a majority.

Frankly, thats the nuttiest argument anyone has put forward.

 

[LemmyCaution]

One guy telling a lie doesn't prove everyone else is lying.

So if the holocaust was a hoax who built all the V2 rockets Werner von Braun sent to London?

It would be nice to see the appalling Clayton Moore summarize all the historical treatments of Birkenau that rely on, or even cite, Elie Wiesel as a source for their conclusions.

 

[Saggy]

LOL, I've already made several statements on this topic, explaining various roles in the overall process, the actual murder reserved for Germans.

Absolute drivel, as usual. Hoess makes very clear in his phony 'confession' that the Jews were essential to the extermination process because they were responsible for getting the Jews into the gas chambers, and they did so by telling the victims that they were going for a shower. And, these same Jews cleared the bodies out of the gas chamber, according to Hoess all the while in good spirits and joking and snacking.

Hoess also says that a new group of Sonderkommandos were brought in at the end of each week (month? operation? I don't have a copy handy) and the old ones killed. This gives rise to the conundrum as to how the new Sonderkommandos convince the previous weeks Sonderkommandos to take that final 'shower'.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

I get the "nazi connection to Apollo" thrown at me from time to time, and I don't think people see the contradiction.

So LGR thinks the "slaves/conscripts" were maybe NOT jews? Who were they then? Gypsies and homosexuals? Swedes?

Do you think slaves being whipped into building sharp-edged-sheet-metal objects filled with dangerous substances enjoyed their job? Do they somehow not count as part of the Holocaust for some reason? How many calories per day do you think they were fed to build weapons designed to kill British women and children?

 

[little grey rabbit]

I get the "nazi connection to Apollo" thrown at me from time to time, and I don't think people see the contradiction.

So LGR thinks the "slaves/conscripts" were maybe NOT jews? Who were they then? Gypsies and homosexuals? Swedes?

No, no and no.

POWs from all the defeated nations (eg French, Belgium, Poles, Dutch, Serbians Italians - after 1943), conscripted labor from Poland, Russia and Ukraine.

There were some Jews particularly towards the final months, but definitely a small minority. Virtually no gypsies and virtually no one who was there for reason of being a homosexual.

 

[Matt Giwer]

You're calling 41 and 48 again? Isn't this the same round? Don't you remember ... ? Not too long ago you called 47 & 48 together and Dogzilla called 41 shortly after he put number 12 in play, again? Have new cards been issued?

I'll stick with the 27 million jewish survivors in 1945.

I will also keep in mind the holocaustic position that children and even infants were not killed if they could not work.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Saggy and Dogzilla objected to certain words in the published English translation but -afaik- never offered their own -improved(?) English version of this text. Can you help them out?

This is from the published translation:

Quote:
"In the case of drills made in grave structures, the probings were as deep as stated presence of layers of corpses, which were most often situated at the depth from about 3,50 m. As the analysis of sponge in grave sites indicates, in many cases the grave excavations were dug to the depth of 4,50 to 5,0 m, reaching the underground waters. Deposition of corpses in the water-bearing layers or in very damp structure of the ground just above that layer, with the difficulty of air penetration, because of the depth, caused the changes of the deposited bodies into wax-fat mass. In some graves the layer of corpses reached the thickness of ca. 2,00 m. Most often the layers of corpses were covered with burnt bone remains mixed with charcoal. ..."

Let me tell you something that frosts me. Quotes like that presented as though they mean something.

Real simple. If that is meaningful then you can calculate the number of bodies from the data given. If you cannot make that calculation then the quote is meaningless.

Please show me your calculations.

I have made that challenge at least a dozen times and I have never gotten the math. What I usually get is a hissy fit from people who do not understand the numbers are useless and show nothing at all. These are people politely declared innumerate.

Make my day. Be the first to calculate the number of bodies from the data presented.

 

[MG1962]

Let me tell you something that frosts me. Quotes like that presented as though they mean something.

Real simple. If that is meaningful then you can calculate the number of bodies from the data given. If you cannot make that calculation then the quote is meaningless.

Please show me your calculations.

I have made that challenge at least a dozen times and I have never gotten the math. What I usually get is a hissy fit from people who do not understand the numbers are useless and show nothing at all. These are people politely declared innumerate.

Make my day. Be the first to calculate the number of bodies from the data presented.

Odd you ran like a little girl when I asked you the same question. Difference is I could prove my number, and did

 

[little grey rabbit]

Lawdamussy! Almost 1000 words addressed to someone on ignore

Indeed.

Bunny's drivel on Dziennik Polski ignores the fact that the facsimile in Walendy's screed is very clearly manipulated and the underlying original text is obscured deliberately by his hero.

Most likely because he was reading it in Germany on microfilm on some archive. Dr Terry knows as well as I do how poorly these microfilm print out. It is a fact that the rest of the text he reproduced is barely legible, so it is not surprising that he clearly and obviously retyped the relevant few lines. It is not like anyone reading it would mistake it for being retyped!

The Dziennik Polski article reports on a very well known press conference of the Polish government in exile which was widely reported elsewhere, with literally no other paper mentioning extermination at Treblinka.

Since Dr Terry has not read every other newspaper in English or in Polish he has no basis to make that claim.
Then again it is well known that newspapers were leary about crediting the early reports of gas chambers after the experience of WW1. I could suggest the book "Buried by the Times" that examines the issue of why the New York Times were so reluctant to publish Holocaust rumours.

Nor do any of the historians who have examined the impact of the Bund report, which was the source that provided the information used in the press conference.

Gee, I wonder why that might be.

The coup de grace is surely the non-appearence of Walendy's gambit in Mattogno and Graf's book. They cite Walendy's work but don't cite this particular attempt to insinuate fraud and hoaxing.

Thats your coup-de-grace? You know my opinion on Mattogno. Nor do they cite Richard Krege - in fact Mattogno was so determined not to be associated with Krege's GPR scan of Treblinka that he pleaded a stomach ache in Warsaw and went home.

Walendy's forgery, however, helps us understand that bunny's other references don't equate to a pre-22 July 1942 claim of mass extermination at Treblinka. Treblinka II began to be constructed from April 1942 and was built evidently using Jewish labour. (Not one single Jewish labourer who helped build Treblinka II, or indeed Belzec or Sobibor, survived the war.)

What Dr Terry is saying is he does not know of one single Jewish labourer. Fortunately I am better informed and am delighted to present the testimony of Robert Levi - inmate of Treblinka I and someone who helped construct the barracks
Im Sommer 1942, als ich mit meiner Bohrkolonne innerhalb des Arbeitslagers wieder beim Bohren nach Wasser war, kam plötzlich Befehl dass wir alle im Lager befindlichen Häftlinge gebracht wurden, um eine Autokolonne, die auf einem benachbarten schlechten Weg festgefahren war, herauszuholen und diese flottzumachen. Diese Kolonne bestand etwa aus 6 Lastwagen, auf der sich vielleicht 20 uniformierte SS-Anghörige mit Gepäck befanden. Aus den Gesprachen dieser SS Leute glaubten wir zu entnehmen, dass sie aus dem Raume Franfuhrt herstammten. Als sie merkten, dass wir deutsche Juden waren, riefen sie uns zu, dass sie uns noch Beine machen würden, sie hätten schon mehrere Läger gebaut.
Diese Leute gehörten zu der Leitung des späteren Vernichtungslagers, das bei uns Lager "T" genannt wurde, es hiess auch später Lager 2. ....

Ich selbst war an diesen Arbeiten insoweit beteiligt, als ich etwa 3 tage lang die Fundamente für die zu erstellenden Baracken mit einer Wasserwage zu nivelieren hatte. Diese Arbeiten wurden beaufsichtigt und geleitet durch einen SS Angehörigen Namens Lanz, der von Beruf Architket war. Im Anschluss an diese Arbeiten hatte ich mit meiner Bohrkolonne auch in dem Lager 2 nach einer wasserstelle zu fahnden. Es gelang uns auch recht bald, welches zu finden, sodass eine Handpumpe errichtet werden konnte. Ich erinnere mich noch, dass diese Tatsache Anlass zu einer Feier war, in deren Verlauf, Lanz, der sich mir gegenüber stets anständig und menschlich betragen hat, zu einem höheren Dienstgrad befördert wurde

So no accounts of killing Jews or Poles in mass graves during the construction, just the rather pleasant memories of good treatment by an SS architekt by the name of Lanz.

The fact that underground reports began to distinguish the older Treblinka labour camp from a new and more lethal Treblinka camp in May-June 1942 indicates only that the new camp was more lethal, which was evidently true, as the Jewish labour force was evidently being decimated long before the camp opened for 'business' proper.

Again, not according to Robert Levi.

The pre-opening reports are clearly exaggerated, but that is nothing unusual. They don't yet indicate a knowledge of Treblinka as a site of mass extermination, which emerged only later in the summer, after 22 July. None of these sources speak of five figure killings like Walendy's forgery. Ergo, no convergence and no carrot.

Unhappily Dr Terry's woes simply accummulate, because, alas alas, this is not the only pre Treblinka account of Treblinka II.
In 1942 the Jewish Spectator published an account of "Tremblinka B" - clearly inheritance from the July 9 press conference
http://books.google.com/books?ei=pR...J&dq=Tremblinka+B&q=Tremblinka+#search_anchor
"Inside the Tremblinka Deathcamp"
"Nearby there is a platform that can hold 3000 men. A strange building is situated along a side road. It is newly erected. It has no windows. An eyewitness reports that it consists of a long corridor with small cells on both sides. A special arrangement of pipes supplies liquid gas into the cells"
"The Tremblinka slaughterhouse has been in operation since March 1942. "

In the end, bunny ignores the fact that Walendy's facsimile is unusable as a source because it is so clearly a forgery that the burden of proof shifts squarely back onto whoever wants to use such a dubious source. This is surely why neither of the leading denier gurus thought it worth their while including it in their supposedly definitive screed.

Dr Terry pretends he doesn't know what a source is. If you wish to cite something you simply give the citation and either quote it or summarise it. It is not a requirement of standard academic practice to present or even to have facsimiles of every document. So the source is not Walendy, the source is Dziennik Polski, if Dr Terry it says something different the onus is on him to go and find out what it is.

Which in reality should not be so hard as Dziennik Polski has been in continous operation since WW2 and doubtless has archives in London. Hell, they would probably look up the issue for Dr Terry if he asked nicely.

For my part I am confident to reference Dziennik Polski for that day secure in the knowledge I will not be prove mistaken. Firstly I doubt if Walendy was fabricating something he would be crafty enough to include the misspelling - as he was by no means a Treblinka specialist. On top of that there is such a mass supporting documentation that makes the claim credible.

And since it could so easily be disproved and Dziennik Polski is still around to disprove it, if it were a falsification someone would surely have popped up with the correct version by now.

 

[Corsair 115]

So if the holocaust was a hoax who built all the V2 rockets Werner von Braun sent to London?

Dude, there were no V-2 rockets launched at London! It was all a hoax perpetrated by the Allies to make the Germans look even more mean and scary! I mean, did anyone actually see these V-2 rockets fall to earth? No! Just a sudden boom out of the blue. Clearly it was explosives planted by the Allies!

 

[9/11-investigator]

Dude, there were no V-2 rockets launched at London! It was all a hoax perpetrated by the Allies to make the Germans look even more mean and scary! I mean, did anyone actually see these V-2 rockets fall to earth? No! Just a sudden boom out of the blue. Clearly it was explosives planted by the Allies!

The Germans never denied the existence of V/2 rockets and their usage.
That´s all the evidence you can expect on this planet.

 

[Uzzy]

Lies and liars and more lies and liars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando

Work and death



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filip_M%C3%BCller

Filip Müller





Yeah sure.

http://www.culturewars.com/2004/Weisel.htm
Wiesel lies.



Read of the six versions of Wiesel's liberation from Buchenwald


Conclusion


Google Wiesel fake tattoo

So.. your argument that the Sonderkommando couldn't have done the work is due to.. uh.. accusations that Elie Wiesel lied? That makes no logical sense.

Could you perhaps explain why, in your opinion, the Sonderkommando didn't exist, hmm?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Absolute drivel, as usual. Hoess makes very clear in his phony 'confession' that the Jews were essential to the extermination process because they were responsible for getting the Jews into the gas chambers, and they did so by telling the victims that they were going for a shower. And, these same Jews cleared the bodies out of the gas chamber, . . .

Leaving aside the oddity that Saggy is quoting as a source, for who did what work in the death camps, a memoir he claims to be fraudulent, what is he going on about? I mentioned the SK and their role in at least two posts, one citing Gideon Greif's interviews with SK survivors. What is the point of adding Hoess's recollections at this point other than to snarl about drivel that is absolute, I suppose?

As to Clayton Moore's "resources " gambit, I inquire will again, since neither he nor Saggy has replied: If large scale operations against the Jewish population were impossible due to labor constraints during wartime, how were the deportations orchestrated? Or are these two also denying deportations of Jews east, rubbishing yet more documentary evidence and the deniers' resettlement thesis in the process?

 

[Clayton Moore]

So.. your argument that the Sonderkommando couldn't have done the work is due to.. uh.. accusations that Elie Wiesel lied? That makes no logical sense.

Could you perhaps explain why, in your opinion, the Sonderkommando didn't exist, hmm?

Another earnest question. zzzzzzzzzzzz

The Sonderkommando did exist.


The Holocaust did happen, did exist.


What didn't happen were the gas chambers and the 6,000,000 Jewish people killed.

What the mythmakers have done is create OVERLAY stories to connect missing dots when necessary.

That's why the myths are changed as irrefutable truths are proven.

For instance: All the statistics were in place that the 6,000,000 Jewish people were killed during the Holocaust, where they were killed, their home country, how many,
3,000,000 in gas chambers and X number of Jewish people were in gas chambers located in Germany.

That would be an OVERLAY that had to agree/MESH with the BASE Holocaust story.

So when it became a FACT that there were no gas chambers in Germany the OVERLAY had to be refurbished.
New associations had to be made, numbers revised, locations of the numbers of the dead revised.

Remembering of course that the previous overlay had been based on documented facts and only the anti-Semitic
questioned it.

Remember the Holocaust OVERLAY that included 4,000,000 killed at Auschwitz?

So now I point out a flaw in the LATEST OVERLAY. The gas chamber labor.

The responses.
The Sonderkommando did it.
There were only a few hundred Sonderkommando.
The Sonderkommando only disposed of corpses which says the guards convinced Jewish people to enter the showers.
The Sonderkommando were threatened with death.
The Sonderkommando were killed in gas chambers by newly appointed Sonderkommando.

 

[Clayton Moore]

As to Clayton Moore's "resources " gambit, I inquire will again, since neither he nor Saggy has replied: If large scale operations against the Jewish population were impossible due to labor constraints during wartime, how were the deportations orchestrated? Or are these two also denying deportations of Jews east, rubbishing yet more documentary evidence and the deniers' resettlement thesis in the process?

The exaggerated numbers of deportations to the east are about as valid as the EVIDENCE of GAS CHAMBERS in Germany and the 4,000,000 in Auschwitz.

Asking about lies as if they are FACTS is expected from you and is the typical MO here.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Nearly all of this tripe has been offered before, with the inane depiction of scholarship as hoaxed overlays, and refuted. New to me is this assertion about Birkenau scholarship:

The Sonderkommando only disposed of corpses which says the guards convinced Jewish people to enter the showers.

Gideon Greif, already cited, generally describes SK responsibilities in the extermination process at Birkenau: receiving victims in the undressing room, gathering victims' clothing, moving bodies from gas chambers for cremation, collecting valuables from the bodies and clothing (including cutting hair of the victim and removing gold teeth), operating the cremation furnaces and cremating the bodies ("stokers" slid the bodies into the furnaces), crushing bones left after cremation, and disposing of ashes. The role of the SK in coaxing victims to undress quickly, stow clothes and valuables in the undressing room, and move on to the gas chambers is described painfully and in detail in his preface as well as the interviews. None of this is obscure, and it refutes Clayton Moore's gloss that the SK are understood to have only disposed of corpses and not to have played other roles including receiving victims into the dressing rooms.

As to Clayton Moore's last point, with Saggy's silly post in mind, Greif also reconstructs the time line of the Birkenau SK as is possible from the evidence and lists seven known liquidations of the Sonderkommando of Birkenau in a footnote on p. 357 of We Wept Without Tears. Unlike Saggy, historians do not rely on a single source for their understanding of events, if they can help it, and often find that sources don't match each other in every precise detail. This is a characteristic not unique to the history of the Holocaust, and it explains why Greif, for example, used many sources along with his interviews to clarify issues in the work and history of the Birkenau SK. The proper understanding of the work of extermination in Birkenau is studies like Greif's or others cited by the normal people posting in this forum (Hilberg, Langbein, the Anatomy compendium, Dwork/Van Pelt, etc.). If deniers want to negate the conclusions of these scholars, they should have the decency at least to deal with what they have written. Part of the reason why deniers are perceived as such hateful clowns is exactly this: their inability or refusal actually to revise the research.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The exaggerated numbers of deportations to the east are about as valid as the EVIDENCE of GAS CHAMBERS in Germany and the 4,000,000 in Auschwitz.

Asking about lies as if they are FACTS is expected from you and is the typical MO here.

Please explain to the members of this forum how many Jews were deported from each occupied or collaborationist country, including Poland, to somewhere, and then explain the resulting demographic issues for the Jewish population in these countries.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Clayton Moore's gloss that the SK are understood to have only disposed of corpses and not to have played other roles including receiving victims into the dressing rooms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando

Sonderkommando members did not participate directly in killing; that responsibility was reserved for the guards,

If deniers want to negate the conclusions of these scholars, they should have the decency at least to deal with what they have written. Part of the reason why deniers are perceived as such hateful clowns is exactly this: their inability or refusal actually to revise the research.

How does one debate with self proclaimed scholars who grow the Holocaust with prodigious self serving lies?

Why does the Icon of the Holocaust, Elie Wiesel, lie so often about his time in the "DEATH camps?"

http://www.culturewars.com/2004/Weisel.htm

 

[LemmyCaution]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando

How does one debate with self proclaimed scholars who grow the Holocaust with prodigious self serving lies?

Why does the Icon of the Holocaust, Elie Wiesel, lie so often about his time in the "DEATH camps?"

http://www.culturewars.com/2004/Weisel.htm

Elie Wiesel is neither a scholar of the Holocaust nor a source for scholarship. Is Clayton Moore going to reply to my earlier request that he show where Wiesel has been used as a source for scholarly accounts of Birkenau, let alone a key source?

And Wikipedia is not a scholarly source either. In this case, however, Clayton Moore's basic powers of comprehension fail him: in a condensed summary of the SK, the Wikipedia article says that the "primary" task of the SK was corpse disposal, implying of course, to those who can read, that other tasks befell the members of the SK. I've given Clayton Moore a condensed statement from a person who has studied this question in detail, about which Clayton Moore remains silent favoring instead his misreading of Wikipedia so he can distort what recent scholarship maintains.

To be clear, I didn't ask Clayton Moore what popular glosses on the scholarship say: I asked him contend with the scholarship. Those who do this work, scholars of the Third Reich , the war, and the Holocaust, are not self proclaimed; they are trained historians, political scientists, etc. who work must succeed through peer review and academic discourse and give and take.

Throughout this thread, Clayton Moore refused to do anything with this body of work except handwave it away or ignore it. Perhaps the research on the Holocaust and major works derived from it is fatal to his case. No wonder he sticks to Wikipedia and Elie Wiesel, neither of which are germane to the case for the genocide.

As should be clear, the peril for deniers of this stance is that by taking it they ensure that no one takes them seriously.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Please explain to the members of this forum how many Jews were deported from each occupied or collaborationist country, including Poland, to somewhere, and then explain the resulting demographic issues for the Jewish population in these countries.

You want me to comment on all the OVERLAY lies that have been adjusted over the past 70 years to mesh with the big lie(s) that never happened?

Yeah that's gonna happen.

You should review, but then you may never read,

http://tomsdomain.com/aesop/id87.htm

Moral

He must be a very wise man that knows the true bounds and measures of fooling, with a respect to time, place, matters, persons, Etc. But religion, bus'ness and cares of consequence must be excepted out of that sort of liberty.