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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Are you kidding? . . . If millions, over 10 million, including 3 million Jewish people in gas chambers, how could thousands maybe even tens of thousands of allegedly guilty murderers be allowed to go free after slaughtering millions?
By this logic, of course, W., Cheney, and the neo-cons who planned and executed the American invasion of Iraq are not war criminals after all, otherwise, having brazenly assaulted that country, caused untold misery and deaths, toppled its head of state and put to death him along with members of his family, etc., how could they walk free? The Gulf Wars did not take place? Because the perps got away with them? Please, be serious.
 
Clayton Moore embaresses me? Hardly.

His function here is not primarily to discredit revisionism - although he does try - mainly it is to give you, Dr Terry, Matthew Ellard et al. someone to debate whom you will be able to best in an argument and so avoid discussions on points and issues which are vulnerable.

You are quite literally engage in fake disputation.

For example, Dr Terry loudly proclaimed that a polish newspaper article from 1942 had to be fake because it talked about Treblinka II as a gassing camp before it had officially opened. Then I pointed out this was just one of many pre-Treblinka Treblinka II references.
True revisionists or deniers would be crowing and leaping on this.

Clayton Moore just continues throwing up his weak strawmen. But that is all Team Insanity can cope with these days.
I was just surmising based on your earlier stated view that Mr Moore is clever and harms the cause of the dead duck called revisionism.

Of course Dr Terry has you on ignore so doesn't see your many gems. Which I am sure you are aware of.

I have you on ignore at Rodoh but not here, which I can't explain. It must have something to do with growing tired of waiting for the "outing" of OSR 24. And not having you on ignore here I forgot that I was avoiding discussion of your Treblinka rumors silliness and went ahead and did so. And Bomba the barber. And any number of other points. I wish I could go back and delete my reply on Treblinka/Warsaw, you know, to tart up the record denier style, so it conforms to your wishful thinking, but JREF seems to cut off the editing feature after some time lapse or something.

Tell Clayton to get working as his decoy act isn't working. Oh, and since Dr Terry has him on ignore as well, and that has been discussed in here, his distraction value for Dr Terry is as strong as your case on OSR 24.
 
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Clayton Moore embarrasses me? Hardly.

His function here is not primarily to discredit revisionism - although he does try - mainly it is to give you, Dr Terry, Matthew Ellard et al. someone to debate whom you will be able to best in an argument and so avoid discussions on points and issues which are vulnerable.

You are quite literally engage in fake disputation.

For example, Dr Terry loudly proclaimed that a polish newspaper article from 1942 had to be fake because it talked about Treblinka II as a gassing camp before it had officially opened. Then I pointed out this was just one of many pre-Treblinka Treblinka II references.
True revisionists or deniers would be crowing and leaping on this.

Clayton Moore just continues throwing up his weak strawmen. But that is all Team Insanity can cope with these days.

Actually you're the who celibates victory with a newspaper article rather than attack the Holocaust myth makers on their lies about the people of Germany, Poland, Europe, Red Cross, and even the US. My contribution has them in a corner, where liars always seem to wind up. You're effort is little more than taking turns in a practice duel.

I don't crow like fowl, I've let the dogs out to catch murdering prevaricators.

Your buddy Terry writes his daily 5000 bleat that regurgitates his previous bleat about their was no soap and the museum validation so he can hide behind the ignore button like a 21st. century Oz.
 
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Oh, Clayton. You trot out the oldest denier canards in the book. You've got some learning to do before you can pull off the sophisticated lunacy that is the bunny.
 
I was just surmising based on your earlier stated view that Mr Moore is clever and harms the cause of the dead duck called revisionism.

Of course Dr Terry has you on ignore so doesn't see your many gems. Which I am sure you are aware of.

Indeed.

Bunny's drivel on Dziennik Polski ignores the fact that the facsimile in Walendy's screed is very clearly manipulated and the underlying original text is obscured deliberately by his hero. The Dziennik Polski article reports on a very well known press conference of the Polish government in exile which was widely reported elsewhere, with literally no other paper mentioning extermination at Treblinka. Nor do any of the historians who have examined the impact of the Bund report, which was the source that provided the information used in the press conference.

The coup de grace is surely the non-appearence of Walendy's gambit in Mattogno and Graf's book. They cite Walendy's work but don't cite this particular attempt to insinuate fraud and hoaxing.

Walendy's forgery, however, helps us understand that bunny's other references don't equate to a pre-22 July 1942 claim of mass extermination at Treblinka. Treblinka II began to be constructed from April 1942 and was built evidently using Jewish labour. (Not one single Jewish labourer who helped build Treblinka II, or indeed Belzec or Sobibor, survived the war.) The fact that underground reports began to distinguish the older Treblinka labour camp from a new and more lethal Treblinka camp in May-June 1942 indicates only that the new camp was more lethal, which was evidently true, as the Jewish labour force was evidently being decimated long before the camp opened for 'business' proper. The pre-opening reports are clearly exaggerated, but that is nothing unusual. They don't yet indicate a knowledge of Treblinka as a site of mass extermination, which emerged only later in the summer, after 22 July. None of these sources speak of five figure killings like Walendy's forgery. Ergo, no convergence and no carrot.

In the end, bunny ignores the fact that Walendy's facsimile is unusable as a source because it is so clearly a forgery that the burden of proof shifts squarely back onto whoever wants to use such a dubious source. This is surely why neither of the leading denier gurus thought it worth their while including it in their supposedly definitive screed.

Thus, nothing the bunny can say on this or any other forum about the article is worth listening to unless he produces a pristine and unmanipulated copy of the relevant issue of Dziennik Polski. It is his claim, his burden of proof, not mine or anyone else's.

And that's really as good a point as any to confirm that bunny is on deep ignore, so I cannot even see his posts. If bunny manages to source a proper copy of Dziennik Polski showing Walendy was not a liar, then I will take him off ignore. But not before.

I have you on ignore at Rodoh but not here, which I can't explain. It must have something to do with growing tired of waiting for the "outing" of OSR 24. And not having you on ignore here I forgot that I was avoiding discussion of your Treblinka rumors silliness and went ahead and did so. And Bomba the barber. And any number of other points. I wish I could go back and delete my reply on Treblinka/Warsaw, you know, to tart up the record denier style, so it conforms to your wishful thinking, but JREF seems to cut off the editing feature after some time lapse or something.

Tell Clayton to get working as his decoy act isn't working. Oh, and since Dr Terry has him on ignore as well, and that has been discussed in here, his distraction value for Dr Terry is as strong as your case on OSR 24.

This is probably as good a place as any to state that deniers who embrace multiple conspiracy theories (eg they're also Truthers, Birthers, anti-vaxxers, Moon Hoaxers, etc) and/or who are manifestly clinically insane and/or moronic are liable to be placed on deep ignore. There is simply no point bothering with posterboys for crank magnetism.

The second variable is whether the denier shows any kind of awareness, however dim, for either their own side's literature or the historical sources. Thus, although Saggy is evidently also a Birther, he doesn't seem to be a Truther, anti-vaxxer and Moon Hoaxer as well, and he does make vague gestures towards sources, however inept. Therefore he's not on ignore, whereas certain other deniers are.

The final variable is whether the denier tries to string an argument together. Currently only Dogzilla is trying to do that, so even though I don't think much of his argument and don't regard it as a coherent or substantiated polemic, he earns a modicum of respect for giving it a go. As the bunny knows full well, he started to be placed on ignore from me several years ago, when it became apparent that the vaunted rabbit was incapable of writing more than a few sentences on one point before hopping off to make another random dropping on another point. The suspicion then was that this behaviour pattern was irrevocable, and subsequent antics have more than borne this out.

all together now: 'It was dated September... it was not dated at all.'
 
Indeed.

Bunny's drivel on Dziennik Polski ignores the fact that the facsimile in Walendy's screed is very clearly manipulated and the underlying original text is obscured deliberately by his hero. The Dziennik Polski article reports on a very well known press conference of the Polish government in exile which was widely reported elsewhere, with literally no other paper mentioning extermination at Treblinka. Nor do any of the historians who have examined the impact of the Bund report, which was the source that provided the information used in the press conference.

The coup de grace is surely the non-appearence of Walendy's gambit in Mattogno and Graf's book. They cite Walendy's work but don't cite this particular attempt to insinuate fraud and hoaxing.

Walendy's forgery, however, helps us understand that bunny's other references don't equate to a pre-22 July 1942 claim of mass extermination at Treblinka. Treblinka II began to be constructed from April 1942 and was built evidently using Jewish labour. (Not one single Jewish labourer who helped build Treblinka II, or indeed Belzec or Sobibor, survived the war.) The fact that underground reports began to distinguish the older Treblinka labour camp from a new and more lethal Treblinka camp in May-June 1942 indicates only that the new camp was more lethal, which was evidently true, as the Jewish labour force was evidently being decimated long before the camp opened for 'business' proper. The pre-opening reports are clearly exaggerated, but that is nothing unusual. They don't yet indicate a knowledge of Treblinka as a site of mass extermination, which emerged only later in the summer, after 22 July. None of these sources speak of five figure killings like Walendy's forgery. Ergo, no convergence and no carrot.

In the end, bunny ignores the fact that Walendy's facsimile is unusable as a source because it is so clearly a forgery that the burden of proof shifts squarely back onto whoever wants to use such a dubious source. This is surely why neither of the leading denier gurus thought it worth their while including it in their supposedly definitive screed.

Thus, nothing the bunny can say on this or any other forum about the article is worth listening to unless he produces a pristine and unmanipulated copy of the relevant issue of Dziennik Polski. It is his claim, his burden of proof, not mine or anyone else's.

And that's really as good a point as any to confirm that bunny is on deep ignore, so I cannot even see his posts. If bunny manages to source a proper copy of Dziennik Polski showing Walendy was not a liar, then I will take him off ignore. But not before.



This is probably as good a place as any to state that deniers who embrace multiple conspiracy theories (eg they're also Truthers, Birthers, anti-vaxxers, Moon Hoaxers, etc) and/or who are manifestly clinically insane and/or moronic are liable to be placed on deep ignore. There is simply no point bothering with posterboys for crank magnetism.

The second variable is whether the denier shows any kind of awareness, however dim, for either their own side's literature or the historical sources. Thus, although Saggy is evidently also a Birther, he doesn't seem to be a Truther, anti-vaxxer and Moon Hoaxer as well, and he does make vague gestures towards sources, however inept. Therefore he's not on ignore, whereas certain other deniers are.

The final variable is whether the denier tries to string an argument together. Currently only Dogzilla is trying to do that, so even though I don't think much of his argument and don't regard it as a coherent or substantiated polemic, he earns a modicum of respect for giving it a go. As the bunny knows full well, he started to be placed on ignore from me several years ago, when it became apparent that the vaunted rabbit was incapable of writing more than a few sentences on one point before hopping off to make another random dropping on another point. The suspicion then was that this behaviour pattern was irrevocable, and subsequent antics have more than borne this out.

all together now: 'It was dated September... it was not dated at all.'

The reason I'm on Terry's ignore is that I put him between a rock and a hard place.

I've forced the FACT, that a great deal of manpower was required to enable the gas chamber myth, into the discussion and reinforced it with the FACT that the guards could not have performed that labor.

Terry mumbled for a while saying Jewish men performed the labor under the threat of death. I said there was no way that Jewish men of that day could be intimidated into slaughtering 3 million or more.

I guess hiding and sniping is the way he rolls.
 
I've forced the FACT, that a great deal of manpower was required to enable the gas chamber myth, into the discussion and reinforced it with the FACT that the guards could not have performed that labor.


You can think that. The FACTS still show your claim it was a myth are wholly wrong. (Incidentally, I challenge you to start a thread about the bombing campaign over Europe and Germany. It seems that's another topic upon which you are woefully misinformed.)
 
Actually you're the who celibates victory with a newspaper article rather than attack the Holocaust myth makers on their lies about the people of Germany, Poland, Europe, Red Cross, and even the US. My contribution has them in a corner, where liars always seem to wind up. You're effort is little more than taking turns in a practice duel.

I don't crow like fowl, I've let the dogs out to catch murdering prevaricators.

Your buddy Terry writes his daily 5000 bleat that regurgitates his previous bleat about their was no soap and the museum validation so he can hide behind the ignore button like a 21st. century Oz.
When thieves fall out. LOL. Celibates?
 
If you gotta tell people who you have on ignore...
Uh, I do think Clayton Moore is raising the question, as he is the one doing premature victory jigs -- based on the obvious fact that Nick Terry doesn't respond to his arguments and misinterpreting this silence to mean that Nick Terry is stumped by the "resources lacking" silliness which Clayton Moore believes to be killer stuff.

As to Wroclaw's point, it is almost certain that Clayton cannot even follow most of what bunny posts. It is lunacy, and it is very convoluted lunacy. But it is lunacy you can't pick up at Codoh or judicial-inc or Stormfront or Incoherent History or back issues of IHR.

Nick Terry's setting the record straight about this, on his seeing my reply to bunny, is a rather mundane detail and nothing for Clayton Moore to take heart in.

And since Clayton Moore has known for some time that Nick Terry cannot see his posts, his continued jigging over this is both bizarre and disingenuous.
 
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Uh, I do think Clayton Moore is raising the question, as he is the one doing premature victory jigs -- based on the obvious fact that Nick Terry doesn't respond to his arguments and misinterpreting this silence to mean that Nick Terry is stumped by the "resources lacking" silliness which Clayton Moore believes to be killer stuff.

As to Wroclaw's point, it is almost certain that Clayton cannot even follow most of what bunny posts. It is lunacy, and it is very convoluted lunacy. But it is lunacy you can't pick up at Codoh or judicial-inc or Stormfront or Incoherent History or back issues of IHR.

Nick Terry's setting the record straight about this, on his seeing my reply to bunny, is a rather mundane detail and nothing for Clayton Moore to take heart in.

And since Clayton Moore has known for some time that Nick Terry cannot see his posts, his continued jigging over this is both bizarre and disingenuous.

Since Terry is hiding with his tail between his legs you tell me who killed all those people since the guards couldn't have done it.

That is what revisionism is about. Not a bunch of robots yammering about overwhelming evidence.
 
Sonderkommando

Not too hard to find information that simple these days, you know. Of course, they just assisted in disposal. The actual murders were always done by the guards.
 
Since Terry is hiding with his tail between his legs you tell me who killed all those people since the guards couldn't have done it.

That is what revisionism is about. Not a bunch of robots yammering about overwhelming evidence.
LOL, I've already made several statements on this topic, explaining various roles in the overall process, the actual murder reserved for Germans. So as not to repeat myself, I refer you, for Auschwitz-Birkenau, to Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, especially the contribution by Aleksander Lasik, "Historical-Sociological Profile of the Auschwitz SS." Another good overview of those involved, perpetrators and prisoners, can be found in Hermann Langbein's People in Auschwitz. These studies and others are well known, so what revisionism would be all about were it not insipid nazi worship and tedious trolling, and if it had a shred of foundation, would be dealing with such studies. What do you find lacking or poorly argued and supported in these works, by the way?

"Tail between his legs": LOL.
 
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Since Terry is hiding with his tail between his legs you tell me who killed all those people since the guards couldn't have done it.

Wow. Just—

{wow!}

That is what revisionism is about. Not a bunch of robots yammering about overwhelming evidence.

I didn't think you could outdo the previous sentence, but—

Wow!
 
Sonderkommando

Not too hard to find information that simple these days, you know. Of course, they just assisted in disposal. The actual murders were always done by the guards.


Lies and liars and more lies and liars.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando

Work and death

Sonderkommando members did not participate directly in killing; that responsibility was reserved for the guards,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filip_Müller

Filip Müller

His extraordinary situation of cremating corpses was the only reason the Nazis kept him alive.



Yeah sure.

http://www.culturewars.com/2004/Weisel.htm
Wiesel lies.

Born in September 1928, he was fifteen and a half years old. The Germans needed labor for their factories, since Nazi ideology forbade German women from engaging in such work. Women stayed home in Nazi Germany, a policy that made sense to the Nazi racists who ruled the country but left the Germans short of blue-collar labor. Wiesel’s mother and a sister died at Auschwitz in the summer of 1944, probably in the horrible typhus epidemic that raged in the women’s camp. Their death certificates are in the files at Auschwitz, but on a research trip there I was not allowed to see them. The two other sisters survived the epidemic, and lived to advanced age. Wiesel was sent to the men’s camp with his father. In late 1944, when Wiesel injured his foot in an industrial accident, he was operated on at the camp hospital. According to the vulgate version of the Jewish holocaust story, he should have been disposed of in a gas chamber since he was not only a child but was also disabled. Yet nothing of the sort happened. While in the hospital, he befriended the hospital personnel and, as the Russians approached in January 1945, was offered the opportunity by the Jewish staff physicians to stay on and not be evacuated with the retreating Germans. Yet, Wiesel preferred to go off with the Germans who, according to the Jewish holocaust story, were allegedly sending 20,000 people a day to the gas chambers. This decision raises a number of very serious questions. Not only that, he also insisted on dragging his sickly father along with him, which was the equivalent of writing the man’s death certificate. The latter, physically weak even before the horrible trauma of the camps, died of dysentery shortly after arriving in Buchenwald in the dead of winter. Repatriated to France in late April at the age of sixteen and a half, Wiesel was reunited there with the two sisters who had survived the typhus epidemic.

Read of the six versions of Wiesel's liberation from Buchenwald


Conclusion
Elie Wiesel, so admired by many U. S. Catholic leaders, is in fact a con man who has enriched himself with his tall tales. Although courted by various misguided Church representatives, he is actually an outspoken enemy of traditional Catholicism, and should play no role whatsoever in Catholic life in this country. It is also evident that both Wiesel and the NYT are comfortable using true lies to promote the Jewish holocaust story and, in turn, Israel. Even worse, it is appalling that Wiesel, in his drive to become a multi-millionaire (he charges a standard fee of $25,000 per appearance and demands a chauffeur-driven car to go with it), and media personality, has so heartlessly exploited the suffering and death of his parents and sister at the hands of the Nazis. In falsifying his “memories” for personal gain, Wiesel has trivialized the personal tragedies of not only his closest family members, but also of all those, Jews and Gentiles, who died in the camps. The old shame of the JOW was, and is, the documented deaths of all too many innocent Jews during the war. The new shame of the JOW is the ongoing media exploitation of those deaths by people like Wiesel and the editors of the New York Times.

Google Wiesel fake tattoo
 
One guy telling a lie doesn't prove everyone else is lying.

So if the holocaust was a hoax who built all the V2 rockets Werner von Braun sent to London?
 
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