General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Mycroft]

Likud is the leading member of the ruling coalition govt.

Hamas is the leading member of the ruling coalition govt.

Likud refuses to recognize the right of a Palestinian state in most of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and all of Gaza.

Hamas refuses to recognize the right of a Jewish State.

.....looks like Hamas have a lot in common. Two sides of the same coin?

When Likud starts shooting Israelis who do support the creation of a Palestinian state to prevent them from creating parties of their own, then you will have two sides of the same coin.

See the trick is to expand your perceptions so that it includes all of the available data, not just the little bits that support your sound bite. Earlier even the fool was pointing out that superficial similarities don't make things comparable when he was talking about finding Nazis that like cats and dogs.

 

[Stout]

Likud refuses to recognize the right of a Palestinian state in most of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and all of Gaza.

Yea, that's got to go. it's every bit as stupid as the Hamas article. What, exactly, is the Likud thinking here ? So far they've failed miserably at the whole genocide and expulsion thing so considering Palestine as a part of Israel is out.

The Israelis IIRC are claiming that the one state solution will lead to a cultural 'genocide" and destroy Israel as a "Jewish state".

Maybe the Likud is happy running what amounts to a giant daycare on their borders. I dunno. Maybe Israelis are just used to it and fear change.

The settler movement / Those guys have got to go too, they're every bit as much a provocation as the Hamas rockets and, if FSM willing, when a Palestinian state is created they're going to find themselves living on the "wrong" side of the fence. All "Palestine" has to do is refuse foreign ownership of Palestinian lands, and suddenly, the settlers have lost their investment, just like millions of other real estate speculators.

While I'm on a roll. I also like to propose the three state solution. Israel, Gaza and the West Bank. Gaza and the WB can fight it out to see who gets to call themselves Palestine and it would eliminate any need for a corridor connecting the two territories.

Gaza has some unique problems of their own, if they keep multiplying their population like they've managed to do despite the Israeli genocide, by the end of the century, these guys are going to be stacked up on top of each other like cord-wood. Either they go with a one child law, like china did, or they develop their economy, go liberal and become "pet parents" like so many North American liberals have chosen to do.

 

[Thunder]

exactly. if Israelis are soo adament that the one-state solution means the destruction of the Jewish state, then all serious political parties must come out and proclaim their support for the two-state solution, meaning a Jewish State in Israel and an Arab State in Palestine (the WB, EJ, and Gaza).

though, some right-wing bigots actually have the balls to suggest that Israel can annex the majority of the West Bank, and let the Palestinians have autonomy...or even transfer their political rights to Jordan. As if such a racist policy would survive 30 seconds.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Opposing an independent Palestinian state, as stated on the Likud platform, again, not a charter, does not mean Likud is opposed to autonomy of the territories when absorbed by Jordan for instance.

Stout, Israeli genocide? Perhaps you could point out where this is occurring.

And if you don't fail as miserably as those other useful idiots on this forum at math, count the number of Israelis in Israel currently and the 'Palestinian diaspora' according to the relaxed and unique definition of what a Palestinian refugee is, numbering between 4-7 million, would do to the demographics in Israel.

Lastly, the equivalence of settler violence in the WB compared to mortar/qassam attacks. Do I really have to get into the specifics of the differences between a 122mm round and that of a rock?

Here's a clue:

and

vs.

and

Hazard a guess what this item can actually stop:

And have another crack at moral equivalence....

 

[Thunder]

Jordan gave up all claims to the West Bank in 1984. They have their own Palestinian problem & have no interest in relieving Israel of its Palestinian problem.

Nevermind the fact that many right wingers are adament that there shall only be one state between the River and the Sea.

 

[Stout]

Stout, Israeli genocide? Perhaps you could point out where this is occurring.

Bigjel, I was trying to be facetious with that one and echo the hyperbole of the anti-Israel left. Obviously I failed

I'm still pro-Israel however I'm not sending out unconditional love.

Ditch that Likud plank and reign in those settlers. I don't care if the settlers bought the land, it's still land that's going to end up being in a 'foreign" country..eventually.

If Israel is concerned about winning it's case in the court of world opinion, those are two steps it could take to help ensure that victory.

 

[Thunder]

If Israel is concerned about winning it's case in the court of world opinion, those are two steps it could take to help ensure that victory.

Honestly, I don't think the right-wing Zionists give a damn what left-wing Zionists, let alone the rest of the world, thinks about them and their agenda.

They consider their goals to be ordained by God and that's all that matters to them.

Sure, they will try to pay the ol' Holocaust/Pogroms/Inquisition guilt trip from time to time, to try to get Gentile support, but in the end they don't give a damn about anyone but themselvs.

 

[Stout]

Honestly, I don't think the right-wing Zionists give a damn what left-wing Zionists, let alone the rest of the world, thinks about them and their agenda.

Maybe not but I did run into more than a few Israelis ( young, just out of the IDF ) who were very concerned about how their country and, by extension, Israelis, were being viewed.

I heard stories of "being confronted" about the whole situation and having to verbally defend the land they were born in.

Maybe they we're lying to me, but I got the definite impression most wanted this whole thing to just be over, not be drafted into the IDF, and live their lives just like the rest of the western world.

Interestingly, Israelis have become less obnoxious in recent years, maybe it has something to do with my running into them in Central America rather than Asia, or maybe it has something to do with wanting to cultivate a more "friendly" image.

 

[Thunder]

Maybe not but I did run into more than a few Israelis ( young, just out of the IDF ) who were very concerned about how their country and, by extension, Israelis, were being viewed.

Israelis who are legitimately concerned about how their nation and its politics are viewed around the world, are considered self-hating Jews, Judenrat, Sonderkommando, and other hateful epithets by right-wing Israeli Jews.

 

[Stout]

Israelis who are legitimately concerned about how their nation and its politics are viewed around the world, are considered self-hating Jews, Judenrat, Sonderkommando, and other hateful epithets by right-wing Israeli Jews.

I can't refute that, but in your opinion, how many Israelis are far right wing ?

 

[Matt Giwer]

I can't refute that, but in your opinion, how many Israelis are far right wing ?

Right, center and left are meaningless terms in themselves as they only refer to the relative spectrum within a country.

For example, if one were to transcribe the US spectrum to France the US left wing would be center. If one were to do the same for Israel to the US one would find Israel's far left would be right of center in the US.

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to transcribe Israel's to France.

 

[Thunder]

I can't refute that, but in your opinion, how many Israelis are far right wing ?

too many. enough to get a racist bastard like Avigdor Lieberman selected as Israel's Foreign Minister.

 

[Stout]

Right, center and left are meaningless terms in themselves as they only refer to the relative spectrum within a country.

For example, if one were to transcribe the US spectrum to France the US left wing would be center. If one were to do the same for Israel to the US one would find Israel's far left would be right of center in the US.

I leave it as an exercise for the reader to transcribe Israel's to France.

Yes, point taken...when we're talking left of center, right of center, man on the street politics, however, once we reach the extreme ends there's no difference. A French Marxist is the same as an American Marxist, likewise with libertarians.

In the context of Israel I'm taking right wing extremism to denote jingoism, nothing more

 

[Stout]

too many. enough to get a racist bastard like Avigdor Lieberman selected as Israel's Foreign Minister.

Does he not support the two state solution?

 

[Matt Giwer]

wow....extra points if you can name the falacy. Maybe I can find some paedophiles that support Netayahus policies and I can get you to review your level of support...

Lol, one of your best.

1. ... the ingathering of Jews to Eretz Yisrael on the basis of the right of self-determination of peoples.

2. ... equality of rights for the Jewish people in respect to the other nations

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Israel only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

7. ... the state be charged first with providing the opportunity for a livelihood and way of life for the citizens. If it is impossible to sustain the total population of the State, then the members of foreign nations (non-citizens) are to be expelled from Eretz Yisrael.

8. Any further immigration of non-Jews is to be prevented.

9. All citizens must have equal rights and obligations.

Granted it sounds better in the original German but if one wishes to compare politics then one should indeed look at the politics.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Opposing an independent Palestinian state, as stated on the Likud platform, again, not a charter, does not mean Likud is opposed to autonomy of the territories when absorbed by Jordan for instance.

Stout, Israeli genocide? Perhaps you could point out where this is occurring.

And if you don't fail as miserably as those other useful idiots on this forum at math, count the number of Israelis in Israel currently and the 'Palestinian diaspora' according to the relaxed and unique definition of what a Palestinian refugee is, numbering between 4-7 million, would do to the demographics in Israel.

Jews knew the people they drove out or their descendants would eventually return to reclaim their private property. Why would anyone take their whining seriously?

 

[Thunder]

Does he not support the two state solution?

an Arab state in most of the West Bank and EJ?

heck no.

 

[Virus]

Lieberman: "I support creation of viable Palestinian state."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/lieberman-i-support-creation-of-viable-palestinian-state-1.271035

 

[The Fool]

Lieberman: "I support creation of viable Palestinian state."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/lieberman-i-support-creation-of-viable-palestinian-state-1.271035

lieberman sometimes trots that one out when needed. Like the 2+ year old article you link...he needed to say this as he was trying to soften his image with the US. He generally qualifies it.....such as adding the word "viable"....what does he mean by that?

He means that he is all for a palestinian state as long as it meets criteria that you will have a hard time to get him to actually describe.

One of his classic requirements of allowing a palestinian state is that he is allowed to dump an unknown number of isreali citizens with Arab DNA into this new state and out of Israel. Not much is said about the ones that may not want to go.

 

[WildCat]

lieberman sometimes trots that one out when needed. Like the 2+ year old article you link...he needed to say this as he was trying to soften his image with the US. He generally qualifies it.....such as adding the word "viable"....what does he mean by that?

How about one which recognizes Israel and doesn't support terrorism against it?

He means that he is all for a palestinian state as long as it meets criteria that you will have a hard time to get him to actually describe.

What have the Palestinians offered? Oh right, they've offered nothing and that's good enough for you.

One of his classic requirements of allowing a palestinian state is that he is allowed to dump an unknown number of isreali citizens with Arab DNA into this new state and out of Israel. Not much is said about the ones that may not want to go.

(citation needed)