So should we consider Apple a cult yet?

[Dr. Keith]

Maybe that's it. If I get a new computer with it Windows and a bunch of crapware, I will format the disk and install it over again (using a copy that I downloaded via torrent because OEMs don't feel the need to include Windows disks anymore). Cause I don't want any of that crap HP gets paid to put on the computer.

This is certainly more effort than a Mac user would have to go through, but given the price difference, it is hardly a big deal.

To you. Mac users are more likely to value ease of use over price. And, I don't like giving money to companies who don't value my time.

 

[Dr. Keith]

It may not be a big deal for you, but it can be quite a chore for others. I know many who would gladly pay extra to avoid such a hassle.

You do raise a good point, however. There are things experienced users (of any platform) know to do and to avoid. Novices aren't so knowledgable. Apple's tight control of the platform is probably helpful in this regard.

Bingo.

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

To you. Mac users are more likely to value ease of use over price.

So do Real Doll users, but that doesn't necessarily make the simpler version better

 

[dtugg]

How much money is 30 minutes to reinstall Windows worth? I say, max $10 seeing as how most of the time you're just waiting for the files to copy so you can do something else.

 

[Dr. Keith]

How much money is 30 minutes to reinstall Windows worth? I say, max $10 seeing as how most of the time you're just waiting for the files to copy so you can do something else.

OK. So that would work for you.

I don't know how to do it, so I would either have to research it a bit or pay someone else to do it. If I go the first way and screw it up then I have wasted my time and I have to pay someone to fix it. If I go the second way I have to drop it off and then pick it up later. Either way it would be a pain in the ass on top of the $1000 bucks I just paid for a new computer. Why should I have to fix the damn thing before I even use it?

From a customer standpoint I expect what I buy to work when I take it out of the box. That is worth more to me than the cost differential.

 

[Dr. Keith]

So do Real Doll users, but that doesn't necessarily make the simpler version better

Is that a common PC analogy?

As a Mac user I'm missing something here.

 

[Rat]

No, they earned it. The windows interface was first used on Macs (Lisa).

Erm, no, it wasn't. Unless by 'first' you mean 'before PCs', in which case it is only true that the Mac got there first; it doesn't follow that MS copied it from the Mac, unless you seriously believe that without Apple, we'd all still be working in a purely command-line environment.

Neither did I when I was only using Windows. But, nonetheless Windows has constantly been following Macs lead on technology and interface. Why? Because MS new that Mac users were happier than Windows users.

I don't know where this idea comes from that the 'copying' of systems is one-directional. Not only do Apple and Microsoft take inspiration (or copy, if you prefer) from each other extensively, but they have each taken ideas from other systems along the way. It's not so much Windows just copying Mac as that they are following a similar path. I'm surprised that anyone sees it as otherwise.

I'll give you the customer service, since MS don't really provide any and leave it to the PC manufacturers to supply support, and their support varies widely in quality. I've had hit and miss experience with Apple support, though. The length of time it's taken them to repair kit has often been abominable. And my favourite time was when a colleague took an Apple monitor to the Apple store for repair, and the chap at the genius bar insisted that he needed to know the admin password for the system before he could take it in. And yes, this was a monitor, not an iMac.

 

[dtugg]

You put the disk in the drive, reboot the computer and follow instructions. That's it. It cannot possibly be worth several hundred dollars.

 

[epepke]

Apple's a cult, but so is Microsoft. They just have different recruiting methods and appeal to different audiences.

 

[fls]

I don't know for sure about Davidians (probably so in the form of hangers on who did not live at the compound) but there certainly are casual scientologists.

The 'causual' thing is not the defining issue, however. While I accept your concern about being too loose with definitions, and would not equate Apple with Scientology, there are patterns of behavior which are similar. In both cases, what ever the subject, the true believer brings it around to declaring that all the problems would be solved if people would only see the truth. People get kicked around with overpriced stuff, and authoritarian controls and still won't abandon or modify their core belief. This is a bit different from other forms of rabid product fandom, a Chevy lover may look disparagingly at other vehicles but rarely has the religious belief that having everyone drive a Chevy would change the world significantly.

I agree that were we to see this behavior from a Chevy fan or an Apple fan, it could be reasonably distinguished as cult-like. Like I said, I don't get out much, so I don't see it. My husband is as close as I've seen anyone get to Apple fanboy, and he's nothing like what you describe. Mostly it's what I've seen here...people who bring up ease of use out of the box and less bugginess, which is more or less valid depending upon just what you're comparing.

Another thought: Somehow Apple has gotten this patina of being almost anti corporate when indeed Apple exerts FAR more corporate control over it's users and developers than Microsoft ever did. Linux is about the only potentially anti corporate OS out there, while corporations are involved in its production, there is much more room for individual control than either MS or Apple.

I didn't realize it was considered anti-corporate. I also didn't realize they were credited with inventing tablets and mp3 players (even I know they didn't and I'm kinda clueless).

Linda

 

[Vic Vega]

Rat, I appreciate your perspective, but I can't explain why you can have a PC and not experience the issues that every PC user I've ever met seems to have. This includes people I work with every day who develop for Windows and who know more about the OS than I ever will.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Apple's a cult, but so is Microsoft. They just have different recruiting methods and appeal to different audiences.

Damn right, and in fact, Microsoft actually has a preacher, just like the ones you find at gospel churches

 

[not daSkeptic]

You put the disk in the drive, reboot the computer and follow instructions. That's it.

YOU know that. YOU know what to expect. YOU know what to do and what not to do. YOU know how to answer various configuration questions. YOU know whether or not something needs custom tweaking what to do if it does. YOU know how to respond to abnormal events. Not everybody knows these things.

It cannot possibly be worth several hundred dollars.

That would depend greatly on who is involved. For some people the process may indeed cost them several hundred dollars in lost time and business. Just because it's not that involved for you does not mean it's the same for everyone else.

 

[Rat]

Rat, I appreciate your perspective, but I can't explain why you can have a PC and not experience the issues that every PC user I've ever met seems to have. This includes people I work with every day who develop for Windows and who know more about the OS than I ever will.

No, and I'm not being rhetorical when I say it really is a mystery to me as well. I don't think you're lying, and I don't think you're stupid, and I find it hard to imagine how you could be mistaken. I guess there could be some confirmation bias on both our parts, but otherwise I'm at a loss.

 

[dtugg]

Perhaps I am wrong about some Mac users; they aren't able to do very simple tasks. Maybe they aren't able to put a DVD in a DVD drive, reboot the computer, and follow very simple instructions. In which case overpaying for a Mac might be the best choice.

 

[Seismosaurus]

I used to use PCs. I'm no computer whizz, but I could install windows easily enough, and I could do things like swap out memory or a CPU. I assisted my brother in putting machines together from scratch more than once. So whilst I'm no expert, I knew as much as most average users, I'd say.

About once every two years I had a crash so bad that I had to reinstall the operating system and all applications from scratch, a process that took much of a day to do. The first time it happened I almost lost my data folder, which contained more than ten years worth of drawings, poetry, stories... losing that would have been a catastrophe to me. I couldn't put a monetary value on it - it would be literally irreplaceable. Fortunately said brother managed to recover it. But I lost many of the little things - bookmarks, stored passwords, etc. More time in rebuilding all that.

Crashes of that magnitude happened to me, oh, about every eighteen months or so over the next few years. And yes, I had a virus program on it the whole time.

Eventually I just decided to shell out for a Mac. Five years on, I've never had any significant problem with it. Application crashes are rare, system crashes have happened only two or three times, and I've never had any crash that couldn't be fixed by rebooting. It's not perfect I suppose, but for the most part it's just a far better, simpler experience than using a PC ever was. I don't have to wrestle with my computer any more!

Perhaps the time saved isn't all that great, to some. But then the few hundred extra every once in a while really isn't all that much money, either.

It impressed me enough that I also have an iPhone, which I think is great, and a Mac laptop. I want an iPad for reading too...

 

[dtugg]

I use a Mac Pro all the time. Admittedly, I think they are a waste of money seeing as how I can put together a much better PC for the same money. But whatever. Not my money.

I do see a freaking spinning beach ball all the time. I have no idea what the **** that means other than I need to reboot the system. So **** that other ****.

 

[Rat]

About once every two years I had a crash so bad that I had to reinstall the operating system and all applications from scratch, a process that took much of a day to do. The first time it happened I almost lost my data folder, which contained more than ten years worth of drawings, poetry, stories... losing that would have been a catastrophe to me. I couldn't put a monetary value on it - it would be literally irreplaceable. Fortunately said brother managed to recover it. But I lost many of the little things - bookmarks, stored passwords, etc. More time in rebuilding all that.

Crashes of that magnitude happened to me, oh, about every eighteen months or so over the next few years. And yes, I had a virus program on it the whole time.

Christ, what the **** do you people do to your computers? I just don't see that sort of failure with any of the machines I have dealings with, aside from when hard drives are failing or the like, which leads me to point out that had you lost all of your drawings, poetry, and stories, you would have literally no one to blame but yourself. Hard drives die with similar frequency in Macs and PCs, mainly because they're identical pieces of hardware; if you don't keep up-to-date backups of your important data, it's not at all unlikely that you will lose it at some point, even if you're now using a magic Mac.

It impressed me enough that I also have an iPhone, which I think is great, and a Mac laptop. I want an iPad for reading too...

I have to support iPhones at work, and they're not bad phones at all, but they're certainly not great. At the time the first iPhone came out (in this country), it was far less capable than the phone I was then using in many respects, even if it did (apparently) look prettier. Since then, as the iPhone had a touchscreen, all smartphones have had to have touchscreens, and I hate them, at least when they're the primary or only interface. It's the only thing I don't like about my current phone.

 

[not daSkeptic]

Perhaps I am wrong about some Mac users; they aren't able to do very simple tasks. Maybe they aren't able to put a DVD in a DVD drive, reboot the computer, and follow very simple instructions.

Some aren't able to do these things, and it's not limited to Mac users. What you perceive as simple tasks are, to many people, very difficult for a variety of reasons. Some have difficulty reading, some have difficulty understanding, some have difficulty remembering, some have difficulty following directions, some have a phobia of things technological, some like to randomly push buttons ...

Just because you have the capacity to take an item which you have never seen before, quickly read the instructions, comprehend them, and follow them to the letter without deviating does not mean everyone else can do the same. Considering the number of times I've had to point this concept out to you I can only conclude that you are either a troll or entirely incapable of understanding that not everybody is like you.

 

[fls]

Some aren't able to do these things, and it's not limited to Mac users. What you perceive as simple tasks are, to many people, very difficult for a variety of reasons. Some have difficulty reading, some have difficulty understanding, some have difficulty remembering, some have difficulty following directions, some have a phobia of things technological, some like to randomly push buttons ...

Just because you have the capacity to take an item which you have never seen before, quickly read the instructions, comprehend them, and follow them to the letter without deviating does not mean everyone else can do the same. Considering the number of times I've had to point this concept out to you I can only conclude that you are either a troll or entirely incapable of understanding that not everybody is like you.

You can stop, now. This is making me feel dumber than the repetition of the "Mac users are dumb" mantra ever did.

I can actually do all of that stuff and choose to use a Mac.

Linda