So should we consider Apple a cult yet?

[tyr_13]

While there are many 'cultish' aspects of 'Apple culture', I don't think Apple is a cult. Just a very over rated, evil company that is getting dangerously close to breaking anti trust laws again but for some reason everyone still trusts and sees as an 'innovator'.

I have issues with many of their business practices, and many of their design choices, but their products are generally fine and I don't begrudge people for choosing them. Hell, I sell them.

It also annoys me that people credit them with 'inventing' a ton of stuff they have no place claiming credit for. Credit for popularizing or doing the best at times, sure.

 

[dtugg]

I really have no idea what is up with all these Mac people who claim to have all these problems with Windows. I never experience them. Maybe it's them?

 

[pipelineaudio]

Does the absolute denial by the macfaithful here mean its a cult?

pipelineaudio (banned from JREF chat for stating that Apple had switched to Argere or Lucent Firewire chipsets for some of the newer MacBookPros)

 

[Rat]

I really have no idea what is up with all these Mac people who claim to have all these problems with Windows. I never experience them. Maybe it's them?

This is exactly where I come up at a loss. I deal with a lot of PCs, and have done for many years, and I just don't see those problems that are often attributed to them. Certainly I sometimes see hardware failure, and I see people using crap applications that don't work very well. I don't think these people are lying, and of those here, I don't think they're stupid, but it's far too common a thread to be a coincidence that they had all these problems and I never do, and I genuinely can't think of why that should be.

 

[Travis]

I don't think I've seen a blue screen of death since 2003.

 

[Rat]

And 90% of those I did see were related to failing hardware, which also affects Macs (although I guess that they may handle such failure more gracefully).

 

[tyr_13]

And 90% of those I did see were related to failing hardware, which also affects Macs (although I guess that they may handle such failure more gracefully).

I get broken Ipods back regularly. If I wanted, I could use all those failures to say they are crap. However, I know how many we sell, and know that just like the Vizio TVs we sell, it isn't that they break more often, it's that there are so many that could break.

 

[Marcus]

Security for your computer is more "user" than "technology". Most malware get's loaded because of social engineering. Meaning you load the hackers malware into your computer by being tricked into clicking where and when you shouldn't.

An educated user is a virus free user.

this and

$0 and none.

this

 

[SpuriusMaximus]

Does a cult have casual users of whatever is being sold who don't follow any of those tenets?

I should think a lot of cults historically did. E.g., the whole industry of monks copying manuscripts. You didn't have to be a hardcore Christian to buy one such manuscript, except maybe if you were buying a bible. Other monasteries supported themselves with various other products. E.g., there were quite a few jeweller monks in the middle ages, and they weren't only making crucifixes.

The Chimay Brewery for example is STILL produced by a monastery, namely the Scourmont Abbey. They sell some fifty million bucks a year worth of beer. They sell cheese too, btw.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who buy their beer or cheese and (A) aren't their cultists, and (B) use it very casually, as far as religion is concerned. I mean, they're not using that beer in communions or anything

Heck, there is even a monastery in the USA making toner cartridges and selling them online. I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a cultist of their own religion to buy a toner cartridge from them

 

[Aitch]

I get broken Ipods back regularly...

A good way to break an iPod, according to a friend who did so, is to have the charger standing on the floor. Under a very heavy but not very well hung framed oil-painting.

Apparently, you can hear it breaking from the next room.

 

[Dr. Keith]

No, I'd say that they have that reputation,

No, they earned it. The windows interface was first used on Macs (Lisa). The mouse was first used on Macs. Up until Windows 7 the PC has been playing catch up to the Mac when it comes to ease of use. Some of us remember tabbing from drop down menu to drop down menu, and it sucked.

Whether 7 has actual caught up I don't know, but to say 3.X, NT, XP, or Vista were anywhere near as easy to use as their Mac contemporaries just makes me wonder why Windows kept trying to be more like Mac.

Of course, the comparable Mac was often twice the price of a PC, but they were always easier to use.

but they've earned the reputation for glib, supercilious users with a misplaced smugness.

Oh hell yeah. Lots of that. No doubt.

But that is like saying BMWs are crappy cars because they are driven by douchebags. Some BMWs are actually very good cars, despite the fact that they are driven by douchebags.

I honestly don't see how Windows is unfriendly to users in itself.

Neither did I when I was only using Windows. But, nonetheless Windows has constantly been following Macs lead on technology and interface. Why? Because MS new that Mac users were happier than Windows users.

My elderly father had a great PC and called me constantly with BS problems. Finally I bought him a Mac and now he calls me once in a blue moon. This anecdote is brought to you by an intuitive interface and an actually useful customer service experience.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I don't think I've seen a blue screen of death since 2003.

And even before 2003 I never saw one . . . on a Mac.

Reputation is cumulative.

 

[Dr. Keith]

I really have no idea what is up with all these Mac people who claim to have all these problems with Windows. I never experience them. Maybe it's them?

Actually, I'd say most of the problems I have had with PCs is the bundled software they are sold with.

Sure, you can clean all of that crap off, but what kind of customer service is that: Here is your new car and we filled the trunk and back seat with coupons for **** you don't want. Also, coupons will pop out of the heater vents later. Enjoy!

 

[BobTheDonkey]

Actually, I'd say most of the problems I have had with PCs is the bundled software they are sold with.

Sure, you can clean all of that crap off, but what kind of customer service is that: Here is your new car and we filled the trunk and back seat with coupons for **** you don't want. Also, coupons will pop out of the heater vents later. Enjoy!

No, that's like blaming GM because the used car dealer threw that crap in the trunk and vents. It's not GM's fault.

Nor is it Microsoft's fault that HP/Dell/et al ship their computers with bloatware and it should not be held as a reflection on Microsoft. I've bought various windows computers from other companies that didn't have that bloatware on it. IOW: bloatware is not part of the OS and shouldn't be labeled as such.

My laptop takes 30-40 seconds to go to sleep (and I only have to push one button - the power button) and about the same to wake. Now, you made the claim that it takes your Mac 5s to sleep, do you have empirical evidence of that? Have you actually timed it or is that just your guesstimation?


As for BSOD - a BSOD doesn't necessarily mean the OS is at fault - most often, the BSOD is a hardware conflict/issue, not software. But, that's beside the point because it tends to take the wind out of people's sails. Windows computers may be more prone to hardware conflicts, but I'll take that over paying 2-3x as much for hardware just so it's Apple compatible. And, again, not exactly the fault of the OS...

 

[dtugg]

Actually, I'd say most of the problems I have had with PCs is the bundled software they are sold with.

Sure, you can clean all of that crap off, but what kind of customer service is that: Here is your new car and we filled the trunk and back seat with coupons for **** you don't want. Also, coupons will pop out of the heater vents later. Enjoy!

Maybe that's it. If I get a new computer with it Windows and a bunch of crapware, I will format the disk and install it over again (using a copy that I downloaded via torrent because OEMs don't feel the need to include Windows disks anymore). Cause I don't want any of that crap HP gets paid to put on the computer.

This is certainly more effort than a Mac user would have to go through, but given the price difference, it is hardly a big deal.

 

[jayh]

Does a cult have casual users of whatever is being sold who don't follow any of those tenets?

Are their casual scientologists or casual Branch Davidians?

I don't know for sure about Davidians (probably so in the form of hangers on who did not live at the compound) but there certainly are casual scientologists.

The 'causual' thing is not the defining issue, however. While I accept your concern about being too loose with definitions, and would not equate Apple with Scientology, there are patterns of behavior which are similar. In both cases, what ever the subject, the true believer brings it around to declaring that all the problems would be solved if people would only see the truth. People get kicked around with overpriced stuff, and authoritarian controls and still won't abandon or modify their core belief. This is a bit different from other forms of rabid product fandom, a Chevy lover may look disparagingly at other vehicles but rarely has the religious belief that having everyone drive a Chevy would change the world significantly.

Another thought: Somehow Apple has gotten this patina of being almost anti corporate when indeed Apple exerts FAR more corporate control over it's users and developers than Microsoft ever did. Linux is about the only potentially anti corporate OS out there, while corporations are involved in its production, there is much more room for individual control than either MS or Apple.

 

[Aitch]

Actually, I'd say most of the problems I have had with PCs is the bundled software they are sold with.

Hah! I got my old PowerBook G4* at PC World (cheap, 'cause it was ex-display) and the way they had set it up and loaded stuff on it was horrendous. First thing I did when I got it home was wipe the hard drive and re-install OS-X.

* which is still going strong, apart from the 'd' key being a bit unpredictable. Must start saving up for a replacement, at some point none of the S/W will be supported/upgradeable. Shame they never managed to get a G5 laptop to work.

 

[Damien Evans]

I should think a lot of cults historically did. E.g., the whole industry of monks copying manuscripts. You didn't have to be a hardcore Christian to buy one such manuscript, except maybe if you were buying a bible. Other monasteries supported themselves with various other products. E.g., there were quite a few jeweller monks in the middle ages, and they weren't only making crucifixes.

The Chimay Brewery for example is STILL produced by a monastery, namely the Scourmont Abbey. They sell some fifty million bucks a year worth of beer. They sell cheese too, btw.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who buy their beer or cheese and (A) aren't their cultists, and (B) use it very casually, as far as religion is concerned. I mean, they're not using that beer in communions or anything

Heck, there is even a monastery in the USA making toner cartridges and selling them online. I'm pretty sure you don't have to be a cultist of their own religion to buy a toner cartridge from them

Similarly, most of the sacramental wine in Australia comes from Sevenhill, a Jesuit Winery in the Clare Valley. Guess how they pay their way? Retail sales of their other wines.

https://www.sevenhill.com.au/index.php

 

[not daSkeptic]

Maybe that's it. If I get a new computer with it Windows and a bunch of crapware, I will format the disk and install it over again (using a copy that I downloaded via torrent because OEMs don't feel the need to include Windows disks anymore). Cause I don't want any of that crap HP gets paid to put on the computer.

This is certainly more effort than a Mac user would have to go through, but given the price difference, it is hardly a big deal.

It may not be a big deal for you, but it can be quite a chore for others. I know many who would gladly pay extra to avoid such a hassle.

You do raise a good point, however. There are things experienced users (of any platform) know to do and to avoid. Novices aren't so knowledgable. Apple's tight control of the platform is probably helpful in this regard.

 

[Dr. Keith]

No, that's like blaming GM because the used car dealer threw that crap in the trunk and vents. It's not GM's fault.

Unless Ford had better control over their dealerships and didn't allow that kind of stuff. Then the Ford becomes a better buying experience.

IOW: bloatware is not part of the OS and shouldn't be labeled as such.

Except that only one operating system is typically sold with bloatware, so it is an issue from the users point of view.

My laptop takes 30-40 seconds to go to sleep (and I only have to push one button - the power button)

You have to push a button? How quaint. I just close mine and it goes to sleep. I don't know how long it takes because I don't have to wait for it, but I imagine it takes around that long.

and about the same to wake. Now, you made the claim that it takes your Mac 5s to sleep, do you have empirical evidence of that? Have you actually timed it or is that just your guesstimation?

I didn't actually make that claim, but it takes less than 5 seconds to wake. I open it and type in my password. No wait.

As for BSOD - a BSOD doesn't necessarily mean the OS is at fault - most often, the BSOD is a hardware conflict/issue, not software. But, that's beside the point because it tends to take the wind out of people's sails. Windows computers may be more prone to hardware conflicts, but I'll take that over paying 2-3x as much for hardware just so it's Apple compatible. And, again, not exactly the fault of the OS...

Yes, but again you are assuming that consumers care whose fault it is. The consumer just knows that when they pay more for an Apple they don't have problems like they did when they paid less and got a Windows computer with so many problems that the error screen has acronyms.