Spoon bending, how's it done?

[LTC8K6]

Yes, I think such measurable anomalies would be compelling. In my own experiments everything was normal, including forming of martensite in a stainless steel spoon. Just as if the specimens would have been bent with force in room temperature.

But there really are some measured or observed anomalies. John Hasted writes in his book "The Metal-Benders" how a boy could bend brittle metal bars, which normally would have broken without noticeable bending. He observed also a spoon becoming soft and breaking spontaneously with necking. Clear necking is normally impossible in bending.

Hasted also measured strains with strain-gauges in some keys, which a boy bent without touching them. He observed suppression of the elastic part of bending. As it happens I got this confirmed in my experiments. One of the boys was not able to bend a saw blade strip, but the other held it between his hands so that half of the strip was sticking out. We saw the end of the strip turn a little and when the boy gave it to me, the strip had just that bend in the middle. The bending would have been impossible normally because the thin and extremely hard strip would have been bending very much elastically before there would have been noticeable bend in the strip.

In an article (C. Crussard, J. Bouvaist (1978): Étude de quelques déformations et transformations apparemment anormales de métaux. Mémoires Scientifiques. Revue Métallurgie - Fevrier 1978) the authors measured work-hardening in a tensile testing bar in the thick end – without visible deformation and totally impossible to get even using strong tools.

J. P. Girard also bent a very strong round bar holding it in one end and rubbing in the middle with fingers of the other hand. The authors even actually saw the bending angle grow during 10-20 seconds. They also measured anomalous increase of hardness in some aluminum strips.

How have you eliminated tricks? What you write sounds exactly like the magic tricks that have been done by many people for a long time. How have you eliminated this possibility?

 

[Lusikka]

I find this response by Martin Gardner to the claims concerning feats of J.P. Girard to be informative:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...ogy-physics-1/
Crussard speaks of seven magicians who “saw the deformations…but were unable to find any sign of faking.” Note how carefully this is worded. We are not told who the magicians are, whether they helped design the tests, or whether they were there during the actual bending. Watching a videotape of a miracle is no substitute for being present when it occurs.



Crussard typifies a small, sad class of scientists who are experts in their field, passionate believers in psychic forces, supremely ignorant of methods of deception, yet convinced of their ability to detect fraud. They will watch a conjuror vanish an elephant on a brightly lit stage, and readily admit they cannot explain how he did it. Next day they will watch an ex-magician move an empty pill bottle three inches and instantly declare that no conjuring techniques could possibly have been used!

Typical descriptions with no evidence, and such has been shown over and over again to be the case where any "miraculous bending" is concerned. If such feats were remotely possible, this would be common knowledge and a useful tool for material science.

Thank you for this post. It shows for a thinking human being very clearly the nature of skepticism. Two respectable real scientists are put against an editor, a man known of using venomous language and twisting facts. And the editor is winning and right, in spite of all details the scientists are giving.

 

[AdMan]

This debate was lost by proponents of psychic spoon bending decades ago.

Even Geller has stopped claiming he's a psychic and is calling himself a "mystifier" these days.

 

[LTC8K6]

Do any of these benders work in a factory bending metal? When I see one bending metal in a factory in place of a machine, I'll believe the claims.

These benders should be able to do a far better job than the machines, with no reprocessing or refinishing required after the bend.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-LLsODnuHI

 

[Sunstealer]

Yes, I think such measurable anomalies would be compelling. In my own experiments everything was normal, including forming of martensite in a stainless steel spoon. Just as if the specimens would have been bent with force in room temperature.

Hi Lusikka, I'm a metallurgist too and this subject pricked my ears.

Can you elaborate on your experiments please.

I can assure others that he's correct with regard to martensite formation due to work hardening in austenitic stainless steel.

But there really are some measured or observed anomalies. John Hasted writes in his book "The Metal-Benders" how a boy could bend brittle metal bars, which normally would have broken without noticeable bending.

I think we need more information on the type of alloy bar used - What's it's composition? What microstructures were present? Do we know it's mechanical properties such as ductility, UTS, proof stress, hardness, toughness etc? What were the dimensions of the bar? What radius of bend was produced?

He observed also a spoon becoming soft and breaking spontaneously with necking. Clear necking is normally impossible in bending.

I agree, we would expect the material to be under tension for necking to occur although I'd have to look at localised necking of sheet material during cold work to see if it's applicable.

Again we require more information as above. The words "becoming soft" don't tally with bending, which infers (work) hardening. How did Hasted measure this softening?

Hasted also measured strains with strain-gauges in some keys, which a boy bent without touching them. He observed suppression of the elastic part of bending.As it happens I got this confirmed in my experiments.

I take it he was using strain gauges before and after the key had been bent. Did the keys exhibit any residual stress pre-bending?

Could you elaborate on your own findings please.

One of the boys was not able to bend a saw blade strip, but the other held it between his hands so that half of the strip was sticking out. We saw the end of the strip turn a little and when the boy gave it to me, the strip had just that bend in the middle. The bending would have been impossible normally because the thin and extremely hard strip would have been bending very much elastically before there would have been noticeable bend in the strip.

A picture paints a 1000 words. Any chance of posting a photo of the bend? I'm interested in the angle and twist of the bend. It's not difficult to put a bend in a saw blade (I'm thinking hack saw blade), the material is very thin.

In an article (C. Crussard, J. Bouvaist (1978): Étude de quelques déformations et transformations apparemment anormales de métaux. Mémoires Scientifiques. Revue Métallurgie - Fevrier 1978) the authors measured work-hardening in a tensile testing bar in the thick end – without visible deformation and totally impossible to get even using strong tools.

My French is not too good (it's appalling), but I'd be interested in this. Do you know what material and strain-rate they were using? Thanks.

J. P. Girard also bent a very strong round bar holding it in one end and rubbing in the middle with fingers of the other hand. The authors even actually saw the bending angle grow during 10-20 seconds.

Again we would need more information on this.

I'd be very interested in any pictures of fractures surfaces from optical or SEM microscopy if you have any.

They also measured anomalous increase of hardness in some aluminum strips.

Could you elaborate more please. Was this a localised increase in hardness or along an entire strip?

Thanks

Sunstealer

 

[epepke]

Has any one considered the metallurgy involved in spoon bending? I was talking to a Welding teacher about this several years ago, and he told me about a silver colored metal, Bismuth alloy. I looked it up on the net and found out that there are several of them with a melting point any where from 117 degrees to 281 degrees Fahrenheit, depending what else is in the alloy.

I don't think that all of the different alloys are of food quality, but it would make a cool party favor. if you could imagine mixing a cup of tea or coffee with one of the bismuth tea spoons and after pulling the spoon out OMG thats strong stuff

I mentioned Woodsmetal on this thread, um, six years ago. Probably not a good choice because it has cadmium in it, but there are others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood's_metal

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Yes, I think such measurable anomalies would be compelling. In my own experiments everything was normal, including forming of martensite in a stainless steel spoon. Just as if the specimens would have been bent with force in room temperature.

So I'm sticking with the conclusion that you were fooled by a magic trick, as that's the most likely explanation.

 

[Almo]

It's a well-known phenomenon that scientists of various types get fooled by these people. It's not embarassing, since scientists are not trained to detect tricks, and magicians/fakers are trained to trick people. That's why Randi and Houdini are/were good people to go after fakers; they were trained in the art.

 

[Lusikka]

Sunstealer, thank you for your to the point questions. It is nice to discuss with a metallurgist understanding the importance of metallurgical evidence. I'll try to elaborate the questions as soon as I can.

Again we require more information as above. The words "becoming soft" don't tally with bending, which infers (work) hardening. How did Hasted measure this softening?

He did not measure it at all because the softening was so obvious. He took a stainless steel spoon from Geller and bent it to and fro between both hands. He writes (p.16): "I could sense the plasticity myself, by gently moving my hands. It was as though the bent part of the spoon was as soft as chewing gum, and yet its appearance was normal."

Then he thought it would be best to save the spoon without breaking and put it gently on the table. He continues: "… but on attempting to move it I was unable to prevent it from falling apart, a 'neck' having developed."

Then he discusses the possibility of the spoon being treated with chemical liquids. What if it had occurred in his mind to try to make an imprint on the spoon, with a soft coin or even with his fingernails? It would be interesting to have the spoon studied with the best modern instruments.

I take it he was using strain gauges before and after the key had been bent. Did the keys exhibit any residual stress pre-bending?

He measured the strain during the bending and gives plotter diagrams of the results.

I recommend you buy the book by Hasted, you can do it from Amazon. Earlier it was possible to read the book in its totality freely online, but I don't know whether it is still there.

There are some problems with the late Hasted. He was a physicist and not a metallurgist, and he was rather gullible. He has done some errors in the book. But he was absolutely sincere and reliable and not a foolish professor at all.

 

[Lusikka]

So I'm sticking with the conclusion that you were fooled by a magic trick, as that's the most likely explanation.

OK, you are welcome. But I suspect you don't understand science and statistics too much. To think that something is "most likely" would require many reliable details as a basis. Details concerning just that occurrence you are talking about, not only general assumptions.

 

[Resume]

OK, you are welcome. But I suspect you don't understand science and statistics too much. To think that something is "most likely" would require many reliable details as a basis. Details concerning just that occurrence you are talking about, not only general assumptions.

And the most reliable detail in this regard is that one can't bend a spoon using one's mind, so this is a conjuror's illusion.

 

[Lusikka]

My French is not too good (it's appalling), but I'd be interested in this. Do you know what material and strain-rate they were using? Thanks.

I can send you the whole paper privately. After reading it you know about it at least as much as I know. I apologize for the bad quality of the pages. Partly the copies I have are rather dim and I did not succeed very well in photographing them. No possibility to scan them.

 

[Lusikka]

And the most reliable detail in this regard is that one can't bend a spoon using one's mind, so this is a conjuror's illusion.

You are certainly happy to know that. After all, you did not comment the details.

 

[Pup]

He did not measure it at all because the softening was so obvious. He took a stainless steel spoon from Geller and bent it to and fro between both hands. He writes (p.16): "I could sense the plasticity myself, by gently moving my hands. It was as though the bent part of the spoon was as soft as chewing gum, and yet its appearance was normal."

Not a metallurgist, but the obvious thing that occurs to me is that Geller was using a doctored spoon, and that's why he could bend it with a subtle trick--because it was specially treated to be soft before he did the trick.

Why is that not the obvious explanation?

 

[AdMan]

Not a metallurgist, but the obvious thing that occurs to me is that Geller was using a doctored spoon, and that's why he could bend it with a subtle trick--because it was specially treated to be soft before he did the trick.

Why is that not the obvious explanation?

Yes--pre-bending the spoon back and forth to weaken the metal is one way to accomplish this trick.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

OK, you are welcome. But I suspect you don't understand science and statistics too much.

You have provided neither science nor statistics. If you'd care to do so, then I will assess the data to the best of my ability and draw my conclusions accordingly.

 

[Psi Baba]

Not a metallurgist, but the obvious thing that occurs to me is that Geller was using a doctored spoon, and that's why he could bend it with a subtle trick--because it was specially treated to be soft before he did the trick.

Why is that not the obvious explanation?

That or using spoons made of thin, stamped metal, such as cafeteria spoons. Johnny Carson easily foiled Geller merely by switching spoons on him.

 

[Olowkow]

Spoon benders seem to always bend them at their weakest point. Why not bend the bowl, or at the first 1/2 inch of the handle? Why not bend knives, at the handle end? What about tempered steel knives, or drill bits? Bending a razor blade would be pretty cool too.

Melting spoons are much more impressive!

http://entertainment-lobby.blogspot.com/2010/02/how-to-create-melting-spoon.html
With the right mix of metals, you can make an alloy that turns to liquid at nearly any temperature.

ETA: Amaze your friends!
http://www.wikihow.com/Bend-a-Spoon

 

[Lusikka]

Spoon benders seem to always bend them at their weakest point. Why not bend the bowl, or at the first 1/2 inch of the handle?

My boys were able to bend the shaft of a spoon anywhere. The bending happened always at the thumb and the direction was away from the thumb. But because of the bending technique the bend was most often very near the weakest point. Bowl bending: see http://www.deanradin.com/spoon.htm

Why not bend knives, at the handle end? What about tempered steel knives, or drill bits? Bending a razor blade would be pretty cool too.

My boys tried, but they were unable to bend knives. Only one of them was able to bend saw blade strips.

 

[mike3]

James Randi doesn't like people to give away how magic tricks are done. So I won't.

What's the problem with divulging the secret this specific _FRAUD_ uses?