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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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Source: Bulletin of International News, Vol. 21, No. 22 (Oct. 28, 1944), p. 937
Published by: Royal Institute of International Affairs
 
Clayton Moore said:
The real Holocaust of WWII Europe took place against German noncombatants with the firestorm bombings of German cities and the Carthaginian peace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II
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And we're back to the bombing debate! Fantastic. Disregarding the fact that in a Total War situation, the delineating line between civilians and soldiers gets seriously blurred due to the large scale war industry, the Germans started bombing civilians first. One of their first actions in the war was to bomb the Polish town of Weilun, which had no military units in the area or even strategic significance.



The True Holocaust Was Levied Against the German Civilians
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And the Morganthau Plan now. Well then, you do realise that plan was quickly scrapped when the US realised that it was counter-productive to their aim of rebuilding the European economy, as well as increasing cold-war tensions requiring a stronger Germany. It's initial suggestion is the understandable result of wartime hatred, and a strong desire to ensure that Germany, which had, after all, started two world wars in twenty five years, could not start a new war.

There was also a strong desire to make it clear to the Germans that they were a defeated nation, which is why you get quotes saying that Germans should go cold and hungry. Either way, the food policy was quickly abandoned when the level of suffering in Germany was revealed, and American food shipments into Germany saved many lives after 1946.
 
little grey rabbit said:
Dunno what Lemmycaution is getting at with his crack about religious texts.

However moderators swept this away into AAH. Repost:

What is interesting is that Warsaw ghetto Jews were writing press releases about "Tremblinka B" and mass graves full six weeks before this letter was supposed to have been written

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/pic/bigeberl.jpg

Why might that be?

Perhaps Lemmycaution could point out the religious text which says that is ok?
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Your only problem is they didn't and you have no proof they did
 
Clayton Moore said:
The real Holocaust of WWII Europe took place against German noncombatants with the firestorm bombings of German cities and the Carthaginian peace.
Click to expand...


There were perhaps only a dozen firestorms created during the entire war. Hamburg in 1943, Dresden and Tokyo in 1945, are the most well-known and destructive.

It may be of interest to Clayton that, in the wake of Hamburg, a number of high-ranking German officials (Albert Speer to name one) stated that another half-dozen or so similar raids on other German cities in short succession, with the same results as at Hamburg, would have shut down German war production and quite possibly have knocked Germany out of the war.

But as it happened Bomber Command was incapable of creating firestorms at will and no such rapid follow-up was possible.
 
Uzzy said:
And we're back to the bombing debate! Fantastic. Disregarding the fact that in a Total War situation, the delineating line between civilians and soldiers gets seriously blurred due to the large scale war industry, the Germans started bombing civilians first. One of their first actions in the war was to bomb the Polish town of Weilun, which had no military units in the area or even strategic significance.
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The bombing debate is nothing more than a red herring from the deniers. Obfuscate, lie, and then have everyone turn away before they realize it's all nonsense.
 
Kthulhut Fhtagn said:
The bombing debate is nothing more than a red herring from the deniers. Obfuscate, lie, and then have everyone turn away before they realize it's all nonsense.
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Which will probably lead into the POW argument. The deployment of the A bomb before a quick drive by for Pearl Harbor
 
MG1962 said:
Well he also has the problem that I know the real story behind these communication
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Well I'll play along. What is the "real" story behind these communications - which resulted in the Polish Government in Exile announcing Treblinka B as a death camp before it actually was supposed to have opened?

As Lemmy Caution said - you know the drill, pony up the references.
 
little grey rabbit said:
Well I'll play along. What is the "real" story behind these communications - which resulted in the Polish Government in Exile announcing Treblinka B as a death camp before it actually was supposed to have opened?

As Lemmy Caution said - you know the drill, pony up the references.
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Oh please you go first - you are rewriting history not me. You have made some claims - For just once - PROVE IT
 
MG1962 said:
Oh please you go first - you are rewriting history not me. You have made some claims - For just once - PROVE IT
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Well I said there was a press conference in London and a press article and a document that appears like a press release in the Oneg Shabbat dated late May and early June. I have already posted the references and relevant quotes.

Now you say you know the "real story". So don't hold back.
 
little grey rabbit said:
Well I said there was a press conference in London and a press article and a document that appears like a press release in the Oneg Shabbat dated late May and early June. I have already posted the references and relevant quotes.

Now you say you know the "real story". So don't hold back.
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No you posted a copy of a copy. But no translation, or who did the translation. We would like to know how you know what that document says?
 
little grey rabbit said:
Well I'll play along. What is the "real" story behind these communications - which resulted in the Polish Government in Exile announcing Treblinka B as a death camp before it actually was supposed to have opened?
Click to expand...

What date are we looking for?

Dr. Ignacy Schwarzbart gives a public speech in London on the 15th of November 1942 which mentions Treblinka, "gas chambers and steam chambers". This speech appears in the American Publication "The Black Book of Polish Jewry" in early 1943. It is fairly accurate although it does say steam chambers in addition to gas chambers.

http://www.xoxol.org/dem/blackbook01.html

From March 1942 The British were recording German POWs. Although the tapes include recordings of soldiers talking about SonderAktion 1005 ( the cremation of bodies to hide evidence of mass murder) the article doesn't date the "quotes". It may be that Dr. Ignacy Schwarzbart and the British exchanged information before his November 15th 1942 speech but I really don't know.

(There are five short pages to this article listed on the bottom of each page)

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,755385-2,00.html


It would appear to me that ARC has the eye witnesses for Treblinka and the dates of their observations set out in the body of their chronological overview of Treblinka. I do not know if some of these eye witnesses were the same eye witnesses who informed Dr Schwarzbart but I have not checked.

http://www.deathcamps.org/treblinka/treblinka.html
 
Matthew Ellard said:
What date are we looking for?

Dr. Ignacy Schwarzbart gives a public speech in London on the 15th of November 1942 which mentions Treblinka, "gas chambers and steam chambers". This speech appears in the American Publication "The Black Book of Polish Jewry" in early 1943. It is fairly accurate although it does say steam chambers in addition to gas chambers.
Click to expand...

The date we are looking at are end May to beginning of June - before the camp is supposed to have opened on 22 July.

To repost the relevant quotes

Some more details of the pre-Treblinka reports of Treblina can be found in Dr Ruta Sakowska's excellent article "Two Forms of Resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto" Institute of Historical Revisionism 1991


Quote:
At that time, ie in late May and early June 1942, the clandestine press published reports on two camps in Treblinka: the labor camp and the death camp. The first reference to the killing center there is to be found in a text by Gutkowski entitled "The Scroll of Agony and Destruction," which probably consitutes the draft of an Oneg Shabbat press bulletin. In the entry dated May 29, 1942, we read: "There are two camps in Treblinka: a labor camp and a death camp. In the death camp people are not murdered by shooting (the criminals are saving ammunition), but by means of a lethal rod [in the Yiddish original: troytshtekn]" This item, without mention of the "lethal rod," was printed on June 2, 1942 by the newspaper Yedies. The next issue of that paper, dated June 9, 1942, carried an article entitled "The Death Camp in Tremblinka[sic]." In it we read:
A Pole who managed to bribe his way out of the camp relates: "I worked with the German personnel of the labor camp. The Poles present there were assigned the task of digging huge pits. The Germans brought a group of about 300 Jews every day. They were ordered to undress and get into the pit. The Poles then had to cover the pits with soil, burying the people there alive. After they finished their work, they were shot."
Despite the close proximity of Treblinka to Warsaw, reports coming from the camps there were inaccurate and partially misleading. This applies above all to the famous "lethal rod".

This appears to have made its way to London by early July with the addition of gas chambers

Die Polnische Tageszeitung, eine Zeitung der polnischen Exilreigerung in London, gibt am 11.Juli 1942 eine Pressekonferenz des britischen Informationsministers vom 9.Juli 1942 wieder, auf der der exil-polnische Innenminister S. Mikolajczyk under dem Kapital "Abschlachten der Juden" folgendes wörtlich ausführte:
Alles in allem wurden diese Nacht 2.500 Menschen ermordet und die restlichen 25,000 Leute wurden in Lager nach Belzec und Tremblinka weggebracht. In Izbica Kujawska wurden 8000 Individuen in unbekannte Richtung weggetrieben. In Belzec und Tremblinka werden die Menschen angeblich mit Giftgas getötet
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Mathew, what it is, Rabbit's cobbling together seeming bits of authoritive information to create some sort of franken-holocaust denial story. For example Gutkowski entitled "The Scroll of Agony and Destruction. Is actually The scroll of agony - it was not a text but a reproduction of a diary, by some else entirely

Gutkowski - or should we say Jacob Grojanowski who's real name was Szlamek Bajler wrote a detailed account of Chelmno extermination camp. Here is a translation of his diary.

http://www.deathcamps.org/occupation/bajler.html

So once again rabbit you cover yourself in glory. Using dishonest quotes to build on your own intelectual dishonety. It is strange that for the claims that the holocaust is not real, so much proof has to be made up
 
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