Jet engine of wrong type found near Ground Zero

Greedo said:
Okay. So you're pointing to a part, wich even if it was (or wasn't for that matter) installed on the Murray St. engine would not be visible because it would be obscured by the cooling duct assembly (wich looks, exept for the holes that can't be seen, the same on both types)? :boggled:
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I'm looking for a parts that have 24 holes at the bottom rim. If any of those parts have those characteristic curved nozzles, then that's evidence for the engine being of correct type. Alternatively, if it can be shown that some JT9D-7R4D engines can have a difference part than this: http://209.85.62.24/46/112/0/p173687/_chromalloy02_edit.jpg then more or less than 24 holes rim is possible too (depending on what types of assemblies are possible).

So, in short, I would like to see a cooling duct assembly with those 20 curved nozzles that is for a JT9D-7R4D.
 
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At first I thought the HPT Stage 1 Cooling Assembly bolts onto the HPT Stage 1 Cooling Duct. Both have 24 bolt holes on their flanges.

Then having looked at it a bit closer it appears that in the photo of the HPT Stage 1 Cooling Duct, the duct is upside down. The flange with the 24 bolt holes should be on the bottom for a comparison because it would be logical for both flanges with 24 bolt holes to mate with another part.

What I find odd in the picture is why someone is comparing 20 tobi tubes with 24 bolt holes. :confused:

Whomever is trying to do the comparison doesn't know the difference between a tobi tube and a bolt hole.

If this is an JT9D-7A/7F/7J rather than a JT9D-7R4D then what's the problem? Both are used on the 767.
 
Sunstealer said:
At first I thought the HPT Stage 1 Cooling Assembly bolts onto the HPT Stage 1 Cooling Duct. Both have 24 bolt holes on their flanges.

Then having looked at it a bit closer it appears that in the photo of the HPT Stage 1 Cooling Duct, the duct is upside down. The flange with the 24 bolt holes should be on the bottom for a comparison because it would be logical for both flanges with 24 bolt holes to mate with another part.

What I find odd in the picture is why someone is comparing 20 tobi tubes with 24 bolt holes. :confused:

Whomever is trying to do the comparison doesn't know the difference between a tobi tube and a bolt hole.

If this is an JT9D-7A/7F/7J rather than a JT9D-7R4D then what's the problem? Both are used on the 767.
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My first comparison was with the 20 curved nozzles in the first image with the 24 holes in the second image. Already then I suspected that the second image showed a bottom part, not the assembly but anyway.

Then I did this match which shows that the assembly with the nozzles has LESS than 24 holes at the bottom rim: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7161524&postcount=83
 
Anders Lindman said:
My first comparison was with the 20 curved nozzles in the first image with the 24 holes in the second image. Already then I suspected that the second image showed a bottom part, not the assembly but anyway.

Then I did this match which shows that the assembly with the nozzles has LESS than 24 holes at the bottom rim: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7161524&postcount=83
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Funny how you yourself are saying it has 24 holes after doing a comparison and then you quote yourself to prove it has less than 24 holes??? The bottom flange on the HPT 1 Cooling Stage Assembly has 24 bolt holes. It's easy just to count them for god's sake.

Those 24 holes allow both of these parts to mate with another part in the engine. Bearing in mind one is an assembly and the other is not, then it wouldn't surprise me if there was another part containing tobi tubes that mates to the HPT Stage 1 Cooling Duct - we just don't have a picture of it.
 
Anders Lindman said:
I thought of that too, that the lower part may be the bottom part and the upper picture showing a part that is mounted on top of that, BUT, the upper part has LESS than 24 holes in its outer bottom ring. So, either way, I win!
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So you have now established that the two items pictured are not variants of the same part and they do not bolt together. A triumph of investigation.

If you ever find out how many bolt holes there are on the 9/11 engine's part and how many there ought to have been, that might actually be interesting.
 
Sunstealer said:
Funny how you yourself are saying it has 24 holes after doing a comparison and then you quote yourself to prove it has less than 24 holes??? The bottom flange on the HPT 1 Cooling Stage Assembly has 24 bolt holes. It's easy just to count them for god's sake.

Those 24 holes allow both of these parts to mate with another part in the engine. Bearing in mind one is an assembly and the other is not, then it wouldn't surprise me if there was another part containing tobi tubes that mates to the HPT Stage 1 Cooling Duct - we just don't have a picture of it.
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Isn't this part the top: http://209.85.62.24/46/112/0/p173686/_chromalloy01_edit.jpg

And this part the bottom: http://209.85.62.24/46/112/0/p173687/_chromalloy02_edit.jpg

The bottom part has 24 holes. The top part has LESS than 24 holes.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
So you have now established that the two items pictured are not variants of the same part and they do not bolt together. A triumph of investigation.

If you ever find out how many bolt holes there are on the 9/11 engine's part and how many there ought to have been, that might actually be interesting.
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OR, that the nozzles on the more modern version 7R4D of the cooling duct assembly look different than: http://209.85.62.24/46/112/0/p201479/TOBI_Nozzles_1977.jpg EDIT: OR that the number nozzles on the 7R4D part is other than 20.
 
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Anders Lindman said:
Isn't this part the top: http://209.85.62.24/46/112/0/p173686/_chromalloy01_edit.jpg

And this part the bottom: http://209.85.62.24/46/112/0/p173687/_chromalloy02_edit.jpg

The bottom part has 24 holes. The top part has LESS than 24 holes.
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Are you saying that these two parts fit together?

I don't think they do - the reason is simple, they are for different engine variations. You can't fit both in the same engine.

They both have 24 holes in their bottom flanges otherwise they wouldn't be able to mate with the same part. You obviously have no experience with aircraft engines.
 
Anders Lindman said:
OR, that the nozzles on the more modern version 7R4D of the cooling duct assembly look different than: http://209.85.62.24/46/112/0/p201479/TOBI_Nozzles_1977.jpg EDIT: OR that the number nozzles on the 7R4D part is other than 20.
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That's a developmental engine. 1977 is the clue. There's no reason why the tobi tubes couldn't be redesigned between then and 1982 (when it first flew) or as a modification to the engine post 1982. It's possible that these engines had a mod whereby the turbine section from a 7A- was installed.

If you are really this concerned Anders I suggest you write to P&W and ask them directly. Ask for the relevant pages in the IPC.
 
Sunstealer said:
Are you saying that these two parts fit together?

I don't think they do - the reason is simple, they are for different engine variations. You can't fit both in the same engine.

They both have 24 holes in their bottom flanges otherwise they wouldn't be able to mate with the same part. You obviously have no experience with aircraft engines.
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They do NOT both have 24 holes. See:

i751qd.jpg


Compare the actual holes with the 24 overlaid computer graphics circles.
 
Sunstealer said:
That's a developmental engine. 1977 is the clue. There's no reason why the tobi tubes couldn't be redesigned between then and 1982 (when it first flew) or as a modification to the engine post 1982. It's possible that these engines had a mod whereby the turbine section from a 7A- was installed.

If you are really this concerned Anders I suggest you write to P&W and ask them directly. Ask for the relevant pages in the IPC.
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Yeah, one poster on another forum said that they made a lot of improvements:

"The name of the component is HPT Stage1 Cooling Duct Assembly. There is a history behind this assembly as I began to read more. This component was part of the early JT9D-7 series engines that were used in development of Boeing's 747 line of aircraft. The "7" series engines have gone through many revisions but are exclusively used on 747's. Many years later, P&W decided to work with NASA in the development in a new technology to improve engine performance and reliability. This improvement was made specifically to this section of engine."

From: http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpitout/topic/1829738/1/
 
Anders Lindman said:
but I would like to see evidence that proves the claim wrong.
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Yay for negative proof!

So what happened exactly? A jet engine was there before the crash and no one saw it? Someone dumped the engine right at the crash and no one noticed? The engine was planted in the building without anyone seeing it and when the explosions went off it ejected it out?
 
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Anders Lindman said:
Yeah, one poster on another forum said that they made a lot of improvements:

"The name of the component is HPT Stage1 Cooling Duct Assembly. There is a history behind this assembly as I began to read more. This component was part of the early JT9D-7 series engines that were used in development of Boeing's 747 line of aircraft. The "7" series engines have gone through many revisions but are exclusively used on 747's. Many years later, P&W decided to work with NASA in the development in a new technology to improve engine performance and reliability. This improvement was made specifically to this section of engine."

From: http://s1.zetaboards.com/pumpitout/topic/1829738/1/
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This changes what exactly?
 
Anders Lindman said:
They do NOT both have 24 holes. See:

[qimg]http://i55.tinypic.com/i751qd.jpg[/qimg]

Compare the actual holes with the 24 overlaid computer graphics circles.
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Your overlay is wrong because you aren't taking perspective into account - the view is not a circle. You can count 12 visible holes on one half of the ring.
 
grandmastershek said:
Yay for negative proof!

So what happened exactly? A jet engine was there before the crash and no one saw it? Someone dumped the engine right at the crash and no one noticed? The engine was planted in the building without anyone seeing it and when the explosions went off it ejected it out?
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Let's focus on the type and version of the jet engine first, but to briefly answer your question: my theory is that the engine part was planted in one of the WTC towers and made to shoot out of the building like a cannonball by placing explosives behind it.

Listen to the sharp short bang when the engine shoots out of the South Tower like a projectile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNRatnY5ymM
 
Sunstealer said:
Your overlay is wrong because you aren't taking perspective into account - the view is not a circle. You can count 12 visible holes on one half of the ring.
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Perspective has been taken into account. Notice the sizes, positions and shapes of the computer graphics circles.
 
Quoting myself here :D

Greedo said:
What is it with you CTers and perspective?
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Anders Lindman said:
Let's focus on the type and version of the jet engine first, but to briefly answer your question: my theory is that the engine part was planted in one of the WTC towers and made to shoot out of the building like a cannonball by placing explosives behind it.

Listen to the sharp short bang when the engine shoots out of the South Tower like a projectile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNRatnY5ymM
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What could possibly make such a sound? Hmm, maybe a large passenger plane hitting a tower at 504 kts?


You do realize sound travels slower than light, right?
 
Anders, if you look at the "old design of the nozzles", you see that the nozzles are longer than on the pic you showed earlier. I'd say it is very likely they updated that part for the newer model.
 
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