Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Kaosium]

I could understand that if it was some detail of a witness's account which needed corroboration. But I don't see why they would do that with a detail that was there for all to see.

Well, I suppose some attention-seekers aren't motivated enough to view the scene and note all the details they can, their purpose in doing what they do not being entirely rational. Also, I can't recall, but did the polizia scientifica maybe close the outer shutters so they broken window wasn't visible from the road?

Or...they could have just been incompetent clowns or had an ulterior motive like you suggest. I'd hate to think that was the case....

This suggests to me even more that they hadn't yet decided how to explain it away. When was the "staging" fairy-tale first mentioned?

That's an interesting question, one I ought to know the answer to off the top of my head, but absolutely nothing official is coming to mind. Only that in the movie (don't hit me! ) they had Mignini tell Amanda that when they were at the scene a day or two after the murder. Of course my confidence in the veracity of that information would be akin to that which I have in going 'all-in' with a deuce-seven in Hold 'em...

 

[tsig]

Erm... I'm not sure that you understand what "special pleading" means, despite having linked to the Wikipedia entry on it. My argument was that those doing any sort of "staging" from the inside would have a different (reduced) set of criteria when choosing the window than a real burglar selecting a window from the outside. This might therefore mean that the "stagers" would choose a different window than the one that would be selected by a real burglar.

And that ain't special pleading, whichever way you choose to look at it. As the saying goes: "Ko drugome jamu kopa sam u nju pada."

____________
"Srce ima svoje razloge iz kojih razloga ne zna ništa, znamo hiljadu stvari."(Blaise Pascal's Serbian cousin)

Yep that's pretty much the definition of special pleading.

 

[Kaosium]

Yep that's pretty much the definition of special pleading.

No, it's not, in fact it has nothing to do with it. Tangentially though, you assume that the rationale for a burglar and a 'stager' are exactly the same. LondonJohn is pointing out that's not the case, a 'stager's' primary goal is to convince investigators a burglar did it, a burglar's is to not get caught, and may also even be the exact opposite: to try to convince investigators someone staged it.

Special pleading would be something like: for everyone else they have to be proven guilty or are otherwise assumed innocent, but since it's Amanda Knox and you don't like her because police told you she's naughty and evil, then she has to be able to prove innocence otherwise she's guilty.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Looks like a special pleading fallacy to me:

Special pleading is a claim that standards of evidence should be modified or reversed for a particular claim or type of claim.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special_pleading

You mean like AK's supporters having to show beyond reasonable doubt that the burglery wasn't staged instead of the Prosecution showing beyond reasonable doubt that it was?

 

[Matthew Best]

Yep that's pretty much the definition of special pleading.

Your lack of understanding of what "special pleading" actually is somehow fails to surprise me.

 

[RWVBWL]

More on 'Super Witness" Antonio Curatolo...

Hi everyone,
Most recall that Antonio Curatolo said he saw Amanda and Raffaele hangin' outside specifically from 9:28pm onward the night Meredith Kercher was killed. He also said that the disco buses were running, which has been proven wrong. But get this. He also said that the place was clean, since the outdoor market, held Tuesdays and Thursday, had occurred. Guess what, it appears that the market did not happen that Thursday, Nov. 1, 2007, for wasn't it All Saints Day...

Flipp over at IIP posted this, it further weakens Toto's testimony, IMHO:
"Raffaele's defense found additional contradictions in Curatolo testimony before the court last March 26th. This time is related to the regional open air market that takes place in Grimana square.

"The square was clean because it seems to me that there had been the market. The market takes place in Grimana square on Tuesdays and Thursdays" said Curatolo answering questions from the prosecutor. The defense wants to introduce documents that prove that the open air market didn't took place on Thursday, 1st November, the day of the murder.

Here is the original link in Italian:
http://www.agi.it/perugia/notizie/2...fesa_sollecito_memoria_contro_parole_curatolo

I translated it in Google:
14:29 May 7, 2011

(AGI) - Perugia, May 7 - On November 2007, in Piazza Grimana, was not held the local market, as it was anticipated that the previous day. And 'the arguments of the lawyers for Raffaele Sollecito, Luca Maori and Giulia Bongiorno, in a defense aimed, once again, to demonstrate the unreliability' of the witness Antonio Curatolo who heard the appeal process to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito to the murder of Meredith Kercher, said he had seen the night of the crime (the one between the first and 2 November 2007), the two former sweethearts together in Grimana Square, not far from the house where Mez and 'was killed. The lawyers, in its statement before the Court, recalling the statement made by the homeless last hearing on March 26, in particular the conditions under which the square was the day that claims to have seen the two defendants.

"It was clean place 'cause it seems to me that there had been on the market. Tuesdays' and Thursdays' are in the market square Grimana" said Curatolo classroom answering questions from the prosecutor. For the defense to urge, pero ', 1 November 2007, it took place on the local market and to show what', has acquired a series of documents by the city of Perugia to support their thesis. For legal then, "is so obvious the need 'to obtain the documents issued by the municipal offices, pending the indispensability' of such acts for the evaluation of the error 'of the statements made by the heads Curatolo, whose unreliability' is and 'already ' amply-examination conducted during the March 26 "last year. (AGI) Pg2/Mav

 

[Amazer]

Erm... I'm not sure that you understand what "special pleading" means, despite having linked to the Wikipedia entry on it. My argument was that those doing any sort of "staging" from the inside would have a different (reduced) set of criteria when choosing the window than a real burglar selecting a window from the outside. This might therefore mean that the "stagers" would choose a different window than the one that would be selected by a real burglar.

And that ain't special pleading, whichever way you choose to look at it. As the saying goes: "Ko drugome jamu kopa sam u nju pada."

____________
"Srce ima svoje razloge iz kojih razloga ne zna ništa, znamo hiljadu stvari."(Blaise Pascal's Serbian cousin)

They did chose a different window then a real burglar would have chosen... as evidenced by the subsequent break ins.

 

[Chris C]

They did chose a different window then a real burglar would have chosen... as evidenced by the subsequent break ins.

Shutters were locked

 

[Dan O.]

They did chose a different window then a real burglar would have chosen... as evidenced by the subsequent break ins.

Evidentaly, Amazer can't remember the arguments that have already been put forward against this very argument. It's almost like Amazer has put reality on ignore.

For the benefit of those just tuning in, there is a basic difference in the situation that Rudy faced breaking into a potentially occupied cottage and the subsequent break in to the cottage where Filomena's window had been boarded up and the doors sealed by police tape.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Shutters were locked

 

[RWVBWL]

Hi Amazer,
Do you have any opinion on the truthfullness of Antonio Curatolo's courtroom testimony in light of recent developments over the past 6 months?

 

[RandyN]

Originally Posted by Antony
This suggests to me even more that they hadn't yet decided how to explain it away. When was the "staging" fairy-tale first mentioned?

That's an interesting question, one I ought to know the answer to off the top of my head, but absolutely nothing official is coming to mind. Only that in the movie (don't hit me! ) they had Mignini tell Amanda that when they were at the scene a day or two after the murder. Of course my confidence in the veracity of that information would be akin to that which I have in going 'all-in' with a deuce-seven in Hold 'em...

Well I’m not going to a be great help here because I can only reference Darkness Descending which is probably about as reliable ??? as the movie.

If I remember the staging fairy-tale came about on the very first day and fairly quickly. The early clue for the chief was that the outer shutters were both only open slightly. This allowed for an opening between the two of 7 to 10 inches...it was metric and Im going from memory so please excuse...but anyway this guy claims that given the size of the rock one would have to be an excellent shot just to get the rock between the shutters.

My first thought when I read that was ...did the wind blow these shutters open or closed any?

No mention that I recall of any talk of glass on top or glass on bottom then. Just the narrow opening at that particular time. No mention that Filomena was in there rooting around either.

I'll re-read that part though I don’t have a lot of faith in the info from that book.


You know RWVBWL.... I always liked Totos story. It puts both accused in a place that makes it impossible for them to have committed any crime. Unless standing around from 9 til midnight is illegal somehow.

 

[Dan O.]

If I remember the staging fairy-tale came about on the very first day and fairly quickly. The early clue for the chief was that the outer shutters were both only open slightly. This allowed for an opening between the two of 7 to 10 inches...it was metric and Im going from memory so please excuse...but anyway this guy claims that given the size of the rock one would have to be an excellent shot just to get the rock between the shutters.

This story was certainly backdated to the first day by the testimony of the police officers involved. But was anything recorded or made public before the trial. I can partially understand ignoring the obvious entry point of a burglar turned murderer if there were no evidence there that might reveal the identity of that burglar. But if there were a theory that the break in were staged, the staging itself would be evidence linking to a possible suspect and should therefore have been thoroughly investigated and documented. The lack of documentation indicates a lack of such a theory while evidence was being collected.

 

[tsig]

Erm... I'm not sure that you understand what "special pleading" means, despite having linked to the Wikipedia entry on it. My argument was that those doing any sort of "staging" from the inside would have a different (reduced) set of criteria when choosing the window than a real burglar selecting a window from the outside. This might therefore mean that the "stagers" would choose a different window than the one that would be selected by a real burglar.

And that ain't special pleading, whichever way you choose to look at it. As the saying goes: "Ko drugome jamu kopa sam u nju pada."

____________
"Srce ima svoje razloge iz kojih razloga ne zna ništa, znamo hiljadu stvari."(Blaise Pascal's Serbian cousin)

No, it's not, in fact it has nothing to do with it. Tangentially though, you assume that the rationale for a burglar and a 'stager' are exactly the same. LondonJohn is pointing out that's not the case, a 'stager's' primary goal is to convince investigators a burglar did it, a burglar's is to not get caught, and may also even be the exact opposite: to try to convince investigators someone staged it.

Special pleading would be something like: for everyone else they have to be proven guilty or are otherwise assumed innocent, but since it's Amanda Knox and you don't like her because police told you she's naughty and evil, then she has to be able to prove innocence otherwise she's guilty.

Naughty and evil? Enjoy your fantasy.

 

[Antony]

Well, I suppose some attention-seekers aren't motivated enough to view the scene and note all the details they can, their purpose in doing what they do not being entirely rational. Also, I can't recall, but did the polizia scientifica maybe close the outer shutters so they broken window wasn't visible from the road?

Or...they could have just been incompetent clowns or had an ulterior motive like you suggest. I'd hate to think that was the case....

My point was that the broken window was something that the investigators could verify for themselves; the point that they might keep quiet about significant evidence appears to me to apply only if it was witness evidence. But I may have missed the point you were making here:

It is often procedure for police forces to conceal details of the crime so they can verify witness accounts to ensure they are accurate.

 

[Antony]

If I remember the staging fairy-tale came about on the very first day and fairly quickly. The early clue for the chief was that the outer shutters were both only open slightly. This allowed for an opening between the two of 7 to 10 inches...it was metric and Im going from memory so please excuse...but anyway this guy claims that given the size of the rock one would have to be an excellent shot just to get the rock between the shutters.

That may be true about the pretexts offered for making the "staging" accusation - but it still doesn't address my reason for asking when it was first mentioned: in the first-day press reports, and even in Amanda's (allegedly) coerced early morning statements of 6 Nov, there is no mention of a broken window.

 

[Mary_H]

They're Serbian

I've taken to pointlessly littering my posts with quotes and phrases in a non-English language, because I think it's important that I try hard to demonstrate my "superiority" via such a means. I feel it's important that everyone knows that I'm really clever and cosmopolitan because I speak and write a second language

Oh, and the first one translates loosely to the English idiom "What goes around comes around". And the second is a literary quote. It translates as "The heart has its reasons, which reason does not know; we feel it in a thousand things." The original French quote reads "Le coeur a ses raisons que la raison ne connait point; on le sait en mille choses."

I knew which quote it had to be as soon as you attributed it to Pascal. It was used by Woody Allen when he dumped Mia Farrow for her daughter. It's popular among those who believe they are entitled to the admiration of others regardless of the stupidity of their own behavior.

 

[Kaosium]

Naughty and evil? Enjoy your fantasy.

Umm...tsig? I think you may have...missed...something about this debate. The ones who think she's 'naughty and evil' are the ones who want to see her punished and spend their time trying to convince themselves and others that she deserves it. Sometimes they complain she's not being disciplined enough, and openly fear that she may escape further correction. In especially...revealing...moments, they sometimes devise amongst themselves additional chastisement that can be visited upon her, her family, and everyone who thinks she's actually an awfully nice person who has been terribly wronged.

 

[RoseMontague]

That may be true about the pretexts offered for making the "staging" accusation - but it still doesn't address my reason for asking when it was first mentioned: in the first-day press reports, and even in Amanda's (allegedly) coerced early morning statements of 6 Nov, there is no mention of a broken window.

This has bothered me as well. In addition the information that I have seen indicates that the officer was immediately convinced the burglary was staged then they proceeded to let Filomena in to contaminate that crime scene. If there was glass all over the top of the clothes wouldn't it make sense to a least document the condition of that particular damning piece of evidence before Filomena supposedly ruined it?

 

[Fine]

That may be true about the pretexts offered for making the "staging" accusation - but it still doesn't address my reason for asking when it was first mentioned: in the first-day press reports, and even in Amanda's (allegedly) coerced early morning statements of 6 Nov, there is no mention of a broken window.

______________________

"Broken window"................La Repubblica, November 2nd/Googlized

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