• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Gage's next debate

And some are unable to read what they're quoting... or for that matter be able to distinguish between corrosion and actual melting...
It's even worse that after posting the same quote multiple times that you haven't understood the implications of what the one who said it concluded in the end.
 
Last edited:
im sure youve read this before. if it happened just like prof Astaneh - Asl said it did then i think you would understand why im debating sunstealer. he observed this steel only 8 days after the attack. from what he says, the steel lost 15.mm then buckled as it was attached to the column. this guy actually looked at forensic evidence!!!! not just some computer model!!

from the article:
One piece Dr. Astaneh-Asl saw was a charred horizontal I-beam from 7 World Trade Center, a 47-story skyscraper that collapsed from fire eight hours after the attacks. The beam, so named because its cross-section looks like a capital I, had clearly endured searing temperatures. Parts of the flat top of the I, once five-eighths of an inch thick, had vaporized.

Less clear was whether the beam had been charred after the collapse, as it lay in the pile of burning rubble, or whether it had been engulfed in the fire that led to the building's collapse, which would provide a more telling clue.

The answer lay in the beam's twisted shape. As weight pushed down, the center portion had buckled outward.

''This tells me it buckled while it was attached to the column,'' not as it fell, Dr. Astaneh-Asl said, adding, ''It had burned first, then buckled.''
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/02/s...clues-and-remedies.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Going round and round with these guys is only useful to a point and arguing the chemistry is too technical for most people. They will never admit that the beam melted. They will insist on using the word corroded which means:
To destroy a metal or alloy gradually, especially by oxidation or chemical action: acid corroding metal.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/corroded
Rusting is an example of corrosion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion
This beam was not corroded gradually over a period of time, it melted.

I did not know that beam was from WTC 7. Is it the one from which Sample #1 [FEMA C report] was cut? I have a file on Abolhassan Astaneh but I didn't have this article so I'm glad I butted in. ;)

FYI:
http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i15/15a02701.htm
http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html
http://nate.flach.s3.amazonaws.com/Abolhassan_Astaneh.avi
http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/WTC/astaneh-wtc.htm
http://www.astaneh.net/
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/02/science/scarred-steel-holds-clues-and-remedies.html
http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf

If you have anything that I don't, please post it.

 
Still can't name a larger office fire?
You qualify for the olympic "point missing" team. You want to argue semantics of which fire was larger in order to avoid the point which is:

The fire on floor 12 that supposedly started the collapse by thermally expanding the floor beams on floor 13 which supposedly pushed a girder off its seat, had burned out in that area over an hour before the collapse so it could not have started the collapse as NIST posits.
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/2429/firesimphotographic.jpg
 
bump for sunstealer. i deleted a couple of double posts in the original.

thermate? i say this because the reaction produces iron and then you have sulfur in the mix, it will create a fe-s eutectic and also produce FeS. now sisson put FeS powder on his steel and heated it to 1100C. thats not enough to melt the FeS but it does create a Fe - FeS eutectic at 985C. and his experiment also produced "similar" results as the wtc steel. so thermate on steel, which produces FeS, would also produce similar results as the wtc 7 steel.



similar even at 150C more than what they said the wtc 7 steel experienced. could they get similar results at 950C? nope, because the Fe - FeS eutectic is 985C. how high can we go and for how long or short and we still see "similar" results?


solid state diffusion occurs on cooling as far as i can read. the austenite stays solid for many more degrees than 950C.
incorrect how?


there still has to be that much sulfur in the eutectic if the 950C is correct.
via solid state diffusion? please explain since the paper states:
"Sulfidation in the solid state into the austenite grains occurs much slower and is observed on cooling as a gradient of precipitated sulfides and oxides or oxidized sulfides with many of these particles containing silicon."
they say on cooling...


which begs the question, how much sulfur would one need to "corrode" 15.9mm of a36 steel in just 8 days!!


but you do need that much sulfur in the "slag" at 950 like they state for there to be a "eutectic"? thats what im talking about. and a continuous supply of sulfur too.


and that is exactly what type of experiment needs to be done to show that a "eutectic" can form from office material to form the "eutectic" that can attack steel like the wtc samples!!!!

snip


all he was doing was playing with eutectics and steel. he wasnt trying to figure out how an office/debris fire could cause a eutectic to form to attack steel. at least he knows what needs to be done.


at least he understands that one needs to look at the office/debris fire that is suppose to cause the eutectic in the first place. remember, the eutectic was novel phenomenon and they only expected to see "twisting and bending but not holes."


hummmmmm...office/debris fire.....office materials.....8 days......15.9mm of a36 steel gone....


wouldnt we all.


and you can prove it happened in days?
Senenmut - I'm not even going to bother anymore. It's painful for me to try to explain to someone who has absolutely zero understanding of the subject when that person just keeps on asking inane questions because it takes me a considerable time to reply and I've got better things to do. I suggest you do some research into the subject starting with what solid state diffusion is and how it relates to phase changes and microstructures. When you can explain the martensitic transformation (which is diffusionless) then I'll start replying to technical queries. It also doesn't help when you post condescending crap like this

considering some parts of that beam are 95% gone (and some totally gone), how you can tell that is amazing!! they didnt show what parts were scanned. they just said some of the most corroded parts so im assuming the parts that were almost gone. hats off to ya man!

when any one (including teenage technicians who don't hold degrees) that's sectioned a component that has a layer of nickel plating on it will recognise it in any subsequent micrograph. It's not amazing at all. I know what I'm looking at and you have no idea, yet you seem to know better.
 
Going round and round with these guys is only useful to a point and arguing the chemistry is too technical for most people. They will never admit that the beam melted. They will insist on using the word corroded which means:
To destroy a metal or alloy gradually, especially by oxidation or chemical action: acid corroding metal.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/corroded
Rusting is an example of corrosion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion
This beam was not corroded gradually over a period of time, it melted.

I did not know that beam was from WTC 7. Is it the one from which Sample #1 [FEMA C report] was cut? I have a file on Abolhassan Astaneh but I didn't have this article so I'm glad I butted in. ;)
You are like Senenmut - you have zero understanding of High Temperature Corrosion and the various mechanisms that apply. We have very specific definitions in the materials science world to avoid this sort of incorrect and misleading crap you are spouting. Your general understanding of corrosion does not take into account "High Temperature Corrosion" which is different.

Do you know the difference between an electro-chemical explanation of corrosion and a solid state diffusion one? Do you know why one applies in this case and the other does not? Nope - you won't have a clue. Even google won't help you because you have no frame of reference on where to begin.

For example from the report

Macroscopically, the steel samples supplied exhibited severe “erosion” with plate thickness varying from 12.7mm to a total loss of metal in many areas.
and
In severely “eroded” areas in the A36 steel, where the thickness had been reduced substantially, heating in a hot-corrosive environment was evident in the microstructure.
The word erosion has a specific meaning in metallurgy when talking about corrosion and in this context it's wrong, which is why it has quotation marks around it, because it's not used in the metallurgical context of corrosion, but in general. There's a difference when talking about wind, rain and glaciers too. Usually the reader is sufficiently experienced to understand the context it's used in even if it doesn't have quotations.

For example Erosion Corrosion is a specific corrosion mechanism - it's used to describe a particular type of corrosion.

Materials engineers/metallurgists would never use the word melted (as you do) in this situation because that word does not apply. That's why we differentiate between "bulk melting" which is on a macro-scale (which is what you, as an ignorant layman, understand the term "melting" as being) and localised melting such as liquation (or "grain boundary melting") which is on the micro-scale. The two are completely different yet you don't have the willing to understand such a simple concept and continue to make the elementary mistake. Ditto the word "corrosion" it's never used unless it's very general or as part of a specific phrase to describe a particular type. We do this so the reader understands what we are on about! The laymen's dictionary definition doesn't apply because it's not specific enough. e.g:

Uniform Corrosion, Concentration Cell Corrosion, Intergranular Corrosion, Atmospheric Corrosion, Erosion Corrosion, Fretting Corrosion, Dealloiyng, Formicary Corrosion, Microbiological Corrosion - MIC, Galvanic Corrosion or Bimetallic Corrosion, Pitting Corrosion - Crevice Corrosion, Stress Corrosion Cracking, Cavitation Corrosion, Hydrogen Embrittlement, Immunity, Corrosion Fatigue and many others.

The beams suffered from a high temperature corrosion attack that included intergranular melting (micro) - the funny thing is that the mechanisms differ slightly between the two samples analysed. One is exhibiting Liquid Metal Embrittlement (LME), which has observable crack propagation rates in the order of meters per second (very fast), due to the segregation of copper (from the alloy addition and the copper strike from the nickel plating) to the grain boundaries which forms a copper sulphide and melts. The other is exhibiting the formation of iron sulphide and it's oxygen eutectic at grain boundaries which subsequently melts and attacks the steel along grain those boundaries - we don't know if this will cause LME, but if so it would easily explain such high corrosion rates and large section loss. Both require high temperatures and solid state diffusion to occur, but bulk melting does not occur.

It's a subtle difference, but lost on truthers.

You won't see copper induced LME if therm*te was used


The steel did not melt in the general term as C7 understands it. Unfortunately he doesn't understand a word of the explanation which is in this report.

http://www.georgevandervoort.com/fa_lit_papers/World_Trade_Center.pdf

P.S - horses are not cows are not wildebeest - saves him typing it.
 
You qualify for the olympic "point missing" team. You want to argue semantics of which fire was larger in order to avoid the point which is:

The fire on floor 12 that supposedly started the collapse by thermally expanding the floor beams on floor 13 which supposedly pushed a girder off its seat, had burned out in that area over an hour before the collapse so it could not have started the collapse as NIST posits.
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/2429/firesimphotographic.jpg

I'll take that as a "No." Also, I am glad that the temperature in an area returns to normal as soon as a fire goes out in the immediate area. :rolleyes:
 
Senenmut - I'm not even going to bother anymore. It's painful for me to try to explain to someone who has absolutely zero understanding of the subject when that person just keeps on asking inane questions because it takes me a considerable time to reply and I've got better things to do. I suggest you do some research into the subject starting with what solid state diffusion is and how it relates to phase changes and microstructures.
i understand now....you cant handle the truth!!:D
they tell you exactly how and when solid state diffusion occured in the paper:

"Sulfidation in the solid state into the austenite grains occurs much slower and is observed on cooling as a gradient of precipitated sulfides and oxides or oxidized sulfides with many of these particles containing silicon."

When you can explain the martensitic transformation (which is diffusionless) then I'll start replying to technical queries. It also doesn't help when you post condescending crap like this:

when any one (including teenage technicians who don't hold degrees) that's sectioned a component that has a layer of nickel plating on it will recognise it in any subsequent micrograph. It's not amazing at all. I know what I'm looking at and you have no idea, yet you seem to know better.

nist said the copper and nickel came from an external source. the outer web plate analyzed didnt have enough copper in it. even though 95% of the steel is gone, you say its the nickel plating. ok. maybe ya need to let nist be aware of your findings!
 
Does anyone know if Chris has studied engineering and what his qualifications are? Truthers seem to get all coy when I ask them that question.
Well he joined JREF in 2006 - so he's had 5 years to acquire some form of relevant qualification. C7 what course did you study in that 5 years?
 
Sunstealer your explanations have been very helpful. As a layman I too have confused the meaning of "corrosion" and "melting," terms which in the case of the eutectic steel mean something very different from what I envision as a layman. That fooled me in my 3/6 debate with Richard Gage. I'll never fully understand this, but in my post-debate I can now talk about this with some confidence and find a easy way to explain at least some of it. Just the difference between macro and micro when using the term "melting" is something anyone can understand. Or that high-temperature "corrosion" is very different from my car gradually rusting out because "corrosion" is a catch-all term meaning a host of different processes. How about "a horse is not a cow..." no, that sounds silly...
 
i understand now....you cant handle the truth!!:D
they tell you exactly how and when solid state diffusion occured in the paper:

"Sulfidation in the solid state into the austenite grains occurs much slower and is observed on cooling as a gradient of precipitated sulfides and oxides or oxidized sulfides with many of these particles containing silicon."
You are quoting something you don't understand and are therefore misinterpreting it- you don't realise that. I shall tell you what they are saying because you don't know.

Sulfidation in the solid state into the austenite grains occurs much slower
They are comparing the diffusion of sulphur into the grains as opposed to the grain boundaries. The temperature is the same whether diffusion is taking place along grain boundaries or in grains.

and is observed on cooling as a gradient of precipitated sulfides and oxides or oxidized sulfides with many of these particles containing silicon
They are talking about the products of this process that are observed on cooling, not observing solid state diffusion occurring on cooling. (although SSD will be ongoing anyway)

This diffusion at the high temperature is known about because we can see, at a lower temperature, (i.e. room temperature) the presence of oxidized sulfides which are found in a gradient.

The word gradient is of utmost importance because solid state diffusion requires a concentration gradient. We expect to see a higher concentration of a diffusing species at the surface of the parent material and that concentration will reduce the further from the surface inside the parent material ( a gradient) if SSD is the mechanism. The model predicts this. We see the gradient hence diffusion is the mechanism. QED.

You think for some reason that you are proving me wrong by quoting that sentence. Unfortunately all you've done is show you have no clue because the sentence doesn't say what you think it does. Hilarious.

A good example is carburisation - the steel has a high concentration of carbon (and hence hard carbides) at it's surface. The concentration reduces the further into the steel you go - hence a gradient. Therefore you can show concentration as a factor of depth from the steel surface whereby the surface = 0mm in depth.

http://www.uk-finishing.org.uk/N-COAT70/carburising.htm

http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/miclib/micrograph_record.php?id=289

http://www.calphad.com/carburization_of_carbon_steel.html

You really ought to try some reading comprehension and learning before you quote passages you don't understand or misinterpret the context.

You joined JREF in Nov 2008 - you've had plenty of time to study for a relevant degree. How is your metallurgy degree coming along? Must be finals time about now. What? 3 years and you've acquired zero knowledge on the subject. lol.

Try these to learn abour SSD - http://www.uio.no/studier/emner/mat...ervisningsmateriale/KJM5120-Ch5-Diffusion.pdf

http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~chem584/lectures/chem584.diffusion.pdf

nist said the copper and nickel came from an external source. the outer web plate analyzed didnt have enough copper in it. even though 95% of the steel is gone, you say its the nickel plating. ok. maybe ya need to let nist be aware of your findings!
It's self evident. A nickel plate layer and a copper strike layer are external sources. Sissons et al will have seen this - it's no biggie.
 
Well he joined JREF in 2006 - so he's had 5 years to acquire some form of relevant qualification. C7 what course did you study in that 5 years?

He's a carpenter. I do not know if it is larger scale projects or smaller, more intricate work though.
 
It's a platitude, a clichée, a worn out association, but... How long must this whacking go on till Senemut at least suggests it's a draw?
 
Going round and round with these guys is only useful to a point and arguing the chemistry is too technical for most people. They will never admit that the beam melted. They will insist on using the word corroded which means:
To destroy a metal or alloy gradually, especially by oxidation or chemical action: acid corroding metal.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/corroded
Rusting is an example of corrosion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrosion
This beam was not corroded gradually over a period of time, it melted.

I did not know that beam was from WTC 7. Is it the one from which Sample #1 [FEMA C report] was cut? I have a file on Abolhassan Astaneh but I didn't have this article so I'm glad I butted in. ;)

FYI:
http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i15/15a02701.htm
http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-june07/overpass_05-10.html
http://nate.flach.s3.amazonaws.com/Abolhassan_Astaneh.avi
http://thewebfairy.com/nerdcities/WTC/astaneh-wtc.htm
http://www.astaneh.net/
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/02/science/scarred-steel-holds-clues-and-remedies.html
http://www.nistreview.org/WTC-ASTANEH.pdf

If you have anything that I don't, please post it.


this is one of the more interesting articles because we actually have a time frame and how much steel was "corroded." in just 8-18 days, we have steel that went from an inch to paper thin!!
"For example, valuable information could come from analysis of the blackened steel from the floors engulfed in flame after the airplane collisions. Steel flanges had been reduced from an inch thick to paper thin, Astaneh said."
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/2001/10/03_grou.html
 
C7 said: floor 12 that supposedly started the collapse by thermally expanding the floor beams on floor 13 which supposedly pushed a girder off its seat, had burned out in that area over an hour before the collapse so it could not have started the collapse as NIST posits.

Chris what I was saying is that some people think NIST missed the detail of the further shrinking of the sagged beams after the heat went down. I'm not qualified to say one way or another... but this IS a disagreement with one detail of the NIST theory. What do you think of this minor VARIATION on the theory?
 

Back
Top Bottom