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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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And as for its use as a staging area for more covert, smaller attacks on Israel...well, it already is that, isn't it?

Yes -- after Israel made the awful mistake of signing a "peace" agreement with the PLO. There were more attacks sometimes in one day during the "peace process" than in any year before that.

I'm not saying that a Palestinian state wouldn't be a threat, I'm just apparently missing how Palestinian areas would represent a bigger and/or more dangerous threat to Israel as a sovereign state than they are right now as territories under the control of a united Hamas/Fatah.

For starters, there would be no Israeli troops there so there would be an unchecked, unlimited amount of heavy weaponry coming in. Imagine, if you will, a "Hamastan" which has control of its ports and airspace.

It's a bit like saying -- I don't mean to be dismissive, but just to give you an idea -- that so-and-so, a serial killer, obviously already got a gun illegally; ergo, what more harm can be done by "making it official" -- enlisting him into the Navy SEALS and giving him heavy weaponry to use?

Besides, think about it. The whole point of the Oslo "peace" process was "land for peace" -- not "land for terror attacks", as it turned out. To now say, "well, but how much worse would the attacks be if there is a Palestinian state?" is ignoring the whole point of the process: it's like saying (again, I am giving an analogy, not attacking you) that if you sell someone a car and he doesn't pay you, you might as well officially forgive him the payment and officially make the car a gift since he made it quite clear he won't pay anyway, so what further harm will that cause?
 
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For starters, there would be no Israeli troops there so there would be an unchecked, unlimited amount of heavy weaponry coming in. Imagine, if you will, a "Hamastan" which has control of its ports and airspace.

Well, I imagine Israel would be very cognizant of that probability, and would take steps both during and after the establishment of a Palestinian state.

It's a bit like saying -- I don't mean to be dismissive, but just to give you an idea -- that so-and-so, a serial killer, obviously already got a gun illegally; ergo, what more harm can be done by "making it official" -- enlisting him into the Navy SEALS and giving him heavy weaponry to use?

Besides, think about it. The whole point of the Oslo "peace" process was "land for peace" -- not "land for terror attacks", as it turned out. To now say, "well, but how much worse would the attacks be if there is a Palestinian state?" is ignoring the whole point of the process: it's like saying (again, I am giving an analogy, not attacking you) that if you sell someone a car and he doesn't pay you, you might as well officially forgive him the payment and officially make the car a gift since he made it quite clear he won't pay anyway, so what further harm will that cause?

Right, and I totally agree with that. That's why I'm not saying "well, Israel might as well recognize a Palestinian state right now". I'm just saying that there's nothing inherently dangerous for Israel about a Palestinian state in and of itself.

What's dangerous for Israel is a Palestinian state established without safeguards and conditions, and ruled by Hamas/Fatah (or Hamas/Fatah as they currently are, though I doubt they're gonna change any time soon). Which is why they shouldn't recognize a Palestinian state right now - it gains them nothing in terms of safety, and gives Hamas/Fatah no incentive to even pretend to change their stance on Israel's existence, much less mean it.

But, as Netanyahu has apparently said, Israel could support a Palestinian state before September under the right conditions.

Not that I think those conditions are anywhere close to happening, much less before September.
 
Look -- I really see where you're coming from... but I think you're being unrealistic. Let me explain.

Well, I imagine Israel would be very cognizant of that probability, and would take steps both during and after the establishment of a Palestinian state.

They said that after the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. "Oh, now the world will see that we are willing to take risks for peace / if they attack us now, the world will be with us!".

The result? Tens of thousands of rockets for years, and, when Israel finally did strike back, worldwide condemnations of the "disproportionate" reaction and accusations of "war crimes".

What makes you think things will be different here? Israel withdraws; a Palestinian state is established; within a month Hamas takes it over (as it did in "liberated" Gaza), established a Islamic dictatorship, and begins to shell Tel Aviv with missiles and Jerusalem with mortars -- just like it is shelling southern Israel now.

So what does Israel do? If it re-takes the territory, it is an "occupying force" to be condemned forever. If it tries punitive measures like -- for instance -- not supplying terrorists who want to kill it with electricity, food, and water, well, that's evil "collective punishment". If it tries to limit access to weapons to the Hamas by controlling the borders of the Palestinian state, well, that too is verboten: it's making the Palestinians "live in a ghetto". And God forbid any "peace activist" get hurt in an Israeli attempt to stop weapon smuggling! That is a "war crime" and "piracy"! (as in the Mavi Marmara).

So what's left? Nothing. Israel will just have to live with constant shelling of its population and the end of any semblance of normal life in Israel -- much like it lives now with the constant threat, and occassional events, of bombing its southern cities from Gaza.

Experience had taught Israel one thing: withdrawals = terorrism and death and worldwide condemantion for "disproportionate war crimes" if it defends itself in return. Clearly the best option is to keep the territory, security-wise, in that case.

Right, and I totally agree with that. That's why I'm not saying "well, Israel might as well recognize a Palestinian state right now". I'm just saying that there's nothing inherently dangerous for Israel about a Palestinian state in and of itself.

If that Palestinian state were populated by (say) Swedes, correct. As it is...

What's dangerous for Israel is a Palestinian state established without safeguards and conditions, and ruled by Hamas/Fatah (or Hamas/Fatah as they currently are, though I doubt they're gonna change any time soon).

Alas, we found out that these "safeguards and conditions" -- the Oslo accord was full of them -- are thoroughly worthless. The Palestinians can violate them with impunity -- Arafat actually smuggled weapons into Gaza in the car he used to return there after the signing of the accord. But the minute Israel actually tries to enforce them, the moment Israel dares to fights back, in short, it would be massively condemned by the world.

Quite apart from destroying any trust Israelies have in the Palestinians, the second Intifada and following events destroyed any trust the Israelies had in paper guarantees, or in the world's willingness to ever support Israel's self-defense.

With good reason, Israelies believe that no matter what "safeguards and conditions" would be installed with a Palestinian state, the Palestinians will get a free pass to violate them as they please, while any Israeli attempt to enforce them would be met with massive condemnations.

Which means de facto that a Palestinian state with "safeguards and conditions" is exactly the same as a Palestinian state without them, to wit, simply a continuation of the "stage plan" for Israel's destruction.

Your problem is, when you call for a Palestinian state with "safeguards and conditions", is that you unconsciously imagine yourself as the judge of whether these "safeguards and conditions" are met. Surely, you tell yourself, Israel will have a a right to fight back if the Palestinian state turns out hostile, for example -- I would never oppose that!

But the world would, alas. The world who would be in charge of enforcing those "safeguards and conditions" will do nothing.
 
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Your problem is, when you call for a Palestinian state with "safeguards and conditions", is that you unconsciously imagine yourself as the judge of whether these "safeguards and conditions" are met.

Actually, no. Israel would. Take Netanyahu's comments in the article above: if a hypothetical Palestinian state meets what he feels are the right conditions, then they probably are. And, more importantly, if the initial conditions are never met to his (or whoever is in charge at the time) satisfaction, so that even the very earliest steps in creating a Palestinian state are never started because those conditions haven't been met, then they almost certainly aren't. You might think that such a state under those conditions is impossible; I'm a bit more sanguine. But I'm sure as hell not naive enough to think it's going to happen any time soon, or happen without Israel being very, very careful about the potential ramifications and utterly confident in its future security. In fact, I'm entirely confident in Israel's ability to judge their own security vis-a-vis any particular proposal for a Palestinian state because of what happened after Oslo.

And despite what you say about "the rest of the world", Israel has (very rightly) ignored what they say. The rest of the world can cry all they want about "piracy" and "war crimes" like they did with the Mavi Marmara, but note how nothing has actually been done. Haters gonna hate, as the meme goes.

You can say "well, what if the rest of the world does take active measures against Israel?" To which I respond: given the loud cries about things like an Israeli genocide of Palestinians, or illegal military occupation, and so on that are going on right now (and have been almost since the establishment of Israel itself), I fail to see how anything related to a Palestinian state would make for any kind of straw that would break the camel's back. If the rest of the world takes an active hand against Israel, it's just as likely to come over complaints about what Israel is doing now as it is to come if Israel bombs a Palestinian state gearing up to attack it.

EDIT: If Israel will never, as you say, recognize a Palestinian state, what was Netanyahu's motivation for his comments? Deflecting the Euro-haters (and I'm not being sarcastic)? The article did say the comments were made after a meeting with Sarkozy, after all. Or did Haaretz, as news media is wont to do, not paraphrase correctly? I note they don't give a direct quote, and the quotes from Netanyahu they do print are pretty critical of the UN...
 
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Let me try to put this another way, Skeptic.

I go to Haaretz and read this article, with the headline "Netanyahu: Israel could support Palestinian state before September under right conditions"

What should I, as an American who'd like to see peace in the Middle East but would really prefer it not come about via a method that would make the ghost of Hitler ectoplasm in his pants, take away from that article?
 
What should I, as an American who'd like to see peace in the Middle East but would really prefer it not come about via a method that would make the ghost of Hitler ectoplasm in his pants, take away from that article?

I don't see what the problem is. It's just stating the obvious. There's no point giving the Palestinians a state just so they can use it to wage more terror.

Same reason we don't give Hezbollah a state.
 
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I don't see what the problem is. It's just stating the obvious. There's no point giving the Palestinians a state just so they can use it to wage more terror.

I agree. That's not my question, though. My question is, if they aren't going to use it to wage more terror (however unlikely that might be right now, is it even a possibility?), should the Palestinians be given a state?

Same reason we don't give Hezbollah a state.

Like Lebanon?
 
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What should I, as an American who'd like to see peace in the Middle East but would really prefer it not come about via a method that would make the ghost of Hitler ectoplasm in his pants, take away from that article?

If I may change the subject from the conflict itself for one post, and catch you in the word (as they say in Hebrew) about you reading an article in the English-language edition of Ha'aretz:

The conclusion you should take away from that article is that you should stop reading Ha'aretz.

"Ha'aretz", especially "Ha'aretz" in English, is just about the worst source you can use to know what is going on. It is by far the least popular major newspaper in Israel.

The reason? Every single major prediction it made in its view of the situation of the middle east was wrong. (I don't mean about what individual politicians will say or do, but about what the Palestinians in general want). It might, I suppose, suddenly begin to be correct about the future, but let us speak about what we know.

Partial list:

1). Supporting the Oslo accords in 1993 because Arafat "made a strategic decision to make peace";
2). Claiming that the second Intifada is just because Israel didn't offer enough, to saying at the height of the Intifada that Israel must give up because "there is no military solution to terrorism" (well, no perfect solution, but the only thing that worked to any degree in defeating the Intifada was the seperation wall and the major anti-terror operations);
3). Claiming Hizbullah is interested in "long-term cease-fire"... a week before the 2006 war;
4). Claiming withdrawing from Gaza will bring security and peace because Hamas only wants the Jews dead because of "the settlements" and now the world will "be with us", and that the right is just "scaring the public" with its claims that there will be "missiles on Ahskelon" due to this (needless to say that's exactly what happened);

...and many, many other such predictions.

Now, Ha'aretz is in favor of a Palestinian state. Well, whoopy-do. That, alone, is very strong evidence it would be a disaster for Israel. As Parkinson of "Parkinson's Law" fame said, there is no such thing as a man who is always right, but there is such thing as a man who is always wrong. Ha'aretz comes as close to that as is humanely possible.

Why has Ha'aretz learned nothing? Why is it constantly in the wrong? The hint is in its Hebrew motto: "The paper for thinking people" (Ha'iton le'anashim hoshvim). That is, it sees itself as the paper of the small minority of "thinking people" who "know" the truth -- that the Palestinians "really" want peace. Outside (perhaps) academia and other insulated hotbeds of "politically correct" thought which it exemplifies (e.g., certain areas of Tel Aviv), it's circulation is virtually nil.

Its English edition is not meant to educated the non-Hebrew speaking world about what is going on in Israel. It is, consciously or unconsciously, a paper meant to project to the world the image that they, the "thinking people", are the "good Jews": "Look! Look! Not all Jews are evil right-wing extremists! Only the 96% of the Jewish population that disagrees with us for some reason, just because we were almost 100% wrong before! Can you believe these right-wing extremists?". Ha'aretz editors care nothing for facts, only for projecting the "correct" image.

They are the modern-day equivelant of the Hofjude (the "court Jew") -- with the important exception that the court Jew, however much he tried to ingratiate himself with the local ruler by discarding all "extremist right-wing" signs of his Judaism and adopting the "moderate" and "sensible" way of whatever was popular in the local court of his time, would usually at least try to help other Jews when possible. As for Ha'aretz, they positively desire Israel to be punished by the world for daring to disagree with them.

For this reason, the entire English edition is invariably about:

(a) How evil, evil Netanyahu is and how his policies will lead Israel to desturction, and/or how Netanyahu had finally seen the light and is doing what they long ago said he should;
(b) How wonderful (despite all the "right wing propaganda", of course) the Palestinians are; and
(c) Total, complete silence as to any reminder about how wrong and disasterous their recommended policies were in the past, even as those policies, just like the ones they push today, were invariably described as the only "rational" and "moderate" ones, indeed the only ones that will save Israel, and how all the "hysterical warnings" from the "insane right" turned out to be 100% correct.

Let me put it this way: do you read the paper of the American Communist party?

No?

...exactly.
 
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Let me put it this way: do you read the paper of the American Communist party?

No?

...exactly.

So, your answer is "the article completely misconstrued Netanyahu's actual comments"?

I probably should have known better than to trust a source that World Net Daily links to. Especially given what I myself have posted regarding WND...

What Israeli newspaper websites would be better sources? English, preferably...I have enough trouble with my limited Arabic, and I know essentially no Hebrew.
 
What Israeli newspaper websites would be better sources? English, preferably...I have enough trouble with my limited Arabic, and I know essentially no Hebrew.

Hard to tell. Most of the press in Israel is left-wing (as is the press in the west in general), sacresly any better than "Ha'aretz". There are also right-wing tabloids, such as "Israel hayom" (Israel Today). On balance, the best -- most objective -- one is the "Jerusalem Post" (www.jpost.com). It is a right-wing in its editorials, but takes care that its headlines are factual.

Example from last week: a British diplomat said the UK considering recognizing a Palestinian state. The headline in most Israeli newspapers (e.g., the left-wing ones)? "Netanyahu failed: England might recognize Palestinian state". The headline in "Israel Hayom"? "An achievement to Netanyahu: England backing from its commitment to a Palestinian state". The headline in the Jerusalem Post? "English diplomat: UK might recognize Palestinian state".

See my point?
 
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This sort of thing is why I generally stay out of Israel/Palestine threads. I prefer to talk about things I actually have a firm knowledge of.

Thank you. I might disagree with you (often strongly, at times), but I certainly respect your knowledge of the matter.
 
I don't see what the problem is. It's just stating the obvious. There's no point giving the Palestinians a state just so they can use it to wage more terror.

Same reason we don't give Hezbollah a state.
Should all terrorists be denied control of states?
 
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Top US senators call on Obama to halt funding for PA
Israel rejects UN request to release withheld tax money; Days after Fatah-Hamas unity deal, EU transfers 85 million euros to Ramallah.
Twenty-seven US Senators appealed on Friday to President Barack Obama to halt funding to a unified Fatah-Hamas government that refuses to renounce terrorism or recognize Israel.

“It is imperative for you to make clear to President [Mahmoud] Abbas that Palestinian Authority participation in a unity government with an unreformed Hamas will jeopardize its relationship with the Untied States, including its receipt of US aid,” the senators said in a letter they sent to Obama. The letter, signed by mostly Democratic senators, was organized by Senators Robert Menendez of New Jersey and Robert Casey of Pennsylvania.
...

Any comments on this or am I missing an obvious thread where the 'international community' deplores the action of Israel in blocking directly funding a terrorist organization? Just wondering if there wasn't a thread since its obviously deplorable when a decrepit building is torn down in J'lem.

Whinge whinge fallacy or continue with the crickets from the usual bunch?
 
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