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Solar Power Questions

BOATGOD

Scholar
Joined
Sep 9, 2001
Messages
67
Location
Tellico Plains, TN
So, in my effort to become self-sufficient due to retirement, I have decided to purchase a piece of land in eastern TN. My main goal is to not pay any bills, lol! I have sold/given away everything that doesn't fit in my Mustang. (Note- this is not the most conducive vehicle to go in the backwoods) I will start off in a tent while I clear my land and start to build. I have read a fair amount of info on solar power, but have yet to find anything 'dumbed-down' enough to answer my questions.

I basically need this explained to me like I was 5.

Just to start out, I plan on an 85 watt panel, 2, 12v, 100 amp hour deep cycle batteries, an 1100 watt inverter, and one 7 watt LED bulb.

1.) How long would this bulb stay lit running off of the fully charged batteries?

2.) Not accounting for inefficiencies, how long would it take to charge the 2 batteries with 6 hours of full sun/day? (no bulb attached)

I appreciate any help provided!
 
So, in my effort to become self-sufficient due to retirement, I have decided to purchase a piece of land in eastern TN. My main goal is to not pay any bills, lol! I have sold/given away everything that doesn't fit in my Mustang. (Note- this is not the most conducive vehicle to go in the backwoods) I will start off in a tent while I clear my land and start to build. I have read a fair amount of info on solar power, but have yet to find anything 'dumbed-down' enough to answer my questions.

I basically need this explained to me like I was 5.

Just to start out, I plan on an 85 watt panel, 2, 12v, 100 amp hour deep cycle batteries, an 1100 watt inverter, and one 7 watt LED bulb.

1.) How long would this bulb stay lit running off of the fully charged batteries?

Depends on how long you want your batteries to last. Deep cycle batteries are pretty happy being discharged to 50%. So the total energy you can get at this level of discharge is 12 volts times 100 A-hr, or 1200 W-hr. (This is regardless of whether you have them in series or parallel.)

How long will this last? If you were able to drive your LED directly, it would last 1200 W-hr divided by 7 W, or 171 hours. However, your 1100 watt inverter will take some current for itlself, and that overhead will be the limiting factor. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that at full load your inverter has 10% efficiency. Then it would use 110 watts. Assuming that load is true at low power output, your total battery load would be 110 plus 7 watts, or 117 watts, and this would last just about 10 hours.

You need to look at the inverter manual and find its efficiency. Specifically, you need the efficiency at low output power.

2.) Not accounting for inefficiencies, how long would it take to charge the 2 batteries with 6 hours of full sun/day? (no bulb attached)

Let's assume you're not abusing the batteries, and they are 50% charged. As noted above, that represents 1200 W-hr of energy you need to replace. The solar panels are (nominally) 85 watts. So you need 1200 W-hr divided by 85 W, or 14 hours of recharge time. Call it 2 and a half days.

If you discharge the batteries to 20%, you will need about 23 hours of charge time, or about 4 days.

Always assuming perfect efficiency. And that the panel will deliver full power into the batteries.
 
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Where in Tennessee are you moving?

(just trying to save us all some time if mailboxes start blowing up again)
 
So, in my effort to become self-sufficient due to retirement, I have decided to purchase a piece of land in eastern TN. My main goal is to not pay any bills, lol! I have sold/given away everything that doesn't fit in my Mustang. (Note- this is not the most conducive vehicle to go in the backwoods) I will start off in a tent while I clear my land and start to build. I have read a fair amount of info on solar power, but have yet to find anything 'dumbed-down' enough to answer my questions.

I basically need this explained to me like I was 5.

Just to start out, I plan on an 85 watt panel, 2, 12v, 100 amp hour deep cycle batteries, an 1100 watt inverter, and one 7 watt LED bulb.

1.) How long would this bulb stay lit running off of the fully charged batteries?

2.) Not accounting for inefficiencies, how long would it take to charge the 2 batteries with 6 hours of full sun/day? (no bulb attached)

I appreciate any help provided!
Why an inverter if you want to run only LEDs? Better run the LEDs directly with the 12 VDC. The losses will be lower, and you get the same amount of light.
 
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It all depends on the Mustang.

What year? Is it a fastback? Convertible? Does it have a Cobra Jet engine?

These details are missing in your OP.
 
I threw the inverter in there because if I hadn't, someone would said something.

Yeah, my mustang is a 2010 stock. No off-roading for her, lol!

Thanks so much WRB! That was just what I was looking for!
 
Why an inverter if you want to run only LEDs? Better run the LEDs directly with the 12 VDC. The losses will be lower, and you get the same amount of light.

My guess is for two reasons: he may have the inverter anyways for running other appliances, and 120V AC LED bulbs are easier to buy off-the-shelf at a place like Lowes or Home Depot than 12 Volt LED bulbs. Until houses start providing DC wiring (don't hold your breath), that will probably continue to be the case.

Running the LED's directly from the battery would indeed be more efficient, but power efficiency is only part of the equation, convenience is no small thing.
 
I threw the inverter in there because if I hadn't, someone would said something.

Yeah, my mustang is a 2010 stock. No off-roading for her, lol!

Thanks so much WRB! That was just what I was looking for!

Glad to help, but you've got to be aware of the details. They're important, and simple answers can be wrong.

For instance, _exactly_ what are the specs on your LED bulb? Is it rated for 12 or 24 volts DC, or does it require 110 VAC? If the former, you can hook it up directly and not waste power. If the latter, then you must use the inverter and take the hit on efficiency.

If you can use the bulb directly and don't mind a little bother, you can swap out the batteries each few days, driving the bulb from one while you charge the other. This simplifies charging, since you don't have to charge both batteries at the same time (don't try to charge two batteries in parallel. For that matter, never connect two batteries directly in parallel. At least, not until you have more experience.) Also, be aware that, if you hook your two batteries in series for 24 volts, you can't charge them in series. You have to charge them one at a time.
 
Thanks again WRB, but I will confess that I worked on buoys and lighthouses my first 10 years in the Coast Guard. But, that was 12 years ago and, being a young man then, was more interested in getting the work finished and drinking beer than I was in learning all the 'math' behind everything, though I do remember a lot. Such as, when we charged our batteries back at the shop, they were wired in parallel with one end of the charged on one end of the bank and the other end on the other end. So the batteries would charge evenly, not one, then the next one, and so on. Is this not true now?

I also understand about using the right lamp for the right voltage. Any other tips?
 
Thanks again WRB, but I will confess that I worked on buoys and lighthouses my first 10 years in the Coast Guard. But, that was 12 years ago and, being a young man then, was more interested in getting the work finished and drinking beer than I was in learning all the 'math' behind everything, though I do remember a lot. Such as, when we charged our batteries back at the shop, they were wired in parallel with one end of the charged on one end of the bank and the other end on the other end. So the batteries would charge evenly, not one, then the next one, and so on. Is this not true now?

I also understand about using the right lamp for the right voltage. Any other tips?

About parallel hookups. I did mention not to do it until you have more experience. The problem with taking two batteries and hooking them together is that if one is much more deeply discharged than the other, you may do things like explode your connecting wire as they equalize.

I fear that you also need to spend a little more money. You need to buy a decent DMM, and you also need to buy a "solar battery charger" (Google it). Total outlay should be about $100. If you don't get a charger, you run the risk of discharging your batteries if you forget to disconnect them at the end of the day. Or, you might overcharge them. Neither is good. The DMM is useful for checking the battery state, and also for checking solar panel output. Make sure you get one with a 10 amp current measurement capability.

Finally, I did oversimplify a little in my first post. On the one hand, for charging +/- three hours around noon, you only get an average of about 90% of full output, so the charge time goes up by about 10%. Also, doing the math in terms of power is simple but misleading. What you really need to look at is current. Here's the first solar panel data sheet I ran across:
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/products.folder/module-folder/kyocera/KC85T.html

Note that the Short Circuit Current (Isc) is about 5 amps. This is what the panel will pump into the battery. Then, for a half-discharged battery, it needs 50 A-hr / 5 A, or 10 hours. Add in the 10% from earlier, and it takes about 11 hours of charge time, or about 2 days per battery. If the panel gets hot it will perform better than this.

If you don't want to spring for a charger, you'll need to watch the charge cycle carefully. Also, you'll want to get somebody to wire a diode into the panel output. You need a 5 to 10 amp diode, 100 volts, preferably Schottky. It will need a heat sink. This diode will prevent the battery from discharging if the light goes, but you can still overcharge the battery.

Since you'll be doing other things from 9 to 3, a charger will be worth it.
 
You should invest time in reading up on battery safety and proper care and maintenance of batteries before proceeding any further. I'm not the right person to ask about this; I don't know that much about batteries.

I basically need this explained to me like I was 5.

Just to start out, I plan on an 85 watt panel, 2, 12v, 100 amp hour deep cycle batteries, an 1100 watt inverter, and one 7 watt LED bulb.

Units:

A joule is a unit of energy. This is a small unit of energy derived from the definition of mechanical work in classical physis. 1 Joule is about the energy released when a small apple drops to the floor from 1 meter of height in Earth's gravity.

A watt is a unit of power. Power is a rate of energy consumption. 1 watt is equal to consuming 1 joule every second[1 J/s]. e.g. your LED light consumes 7 joules per second.

A watt second is again a unit of energy. 1 W*s = 1 (J/s)*s = 1 J.

A watt hour is a slightly larger unit of energy. 1 W*h = 1(J/s)* (3600 s) = 3600 J. You can of course also go the other way by dividing both sides with 3600: 1 J = 1/3600 Wh.

A kWh is 1000 times larger than a Wh as the kilo prefix would suggest.

1 coloumb is a unit of charge.

1 volt is a unit of electrical potential. When a coloumb moves across an electrical potential of 1 V a joule of energy is release. 1 V = 1 J/C.

1 ampere is a unit of current. 1 A = 1 coloumb/s. An ampere-hour is a unit of electrical charge, in analogy to watt-hours. 1 Ah = 1 (C/s)*(3600 s) = 3600 coloumbs.

A physical quantity is the product of a numerical value and a unit. 0.77 is a numerical value; 1 volt is a unit; 0.77 V is a quantity.

When you perform arithmetic on physical quantities you perform the same arithmetic on their units. So for instance, if you multiply 12 V by 100 Ah you get (12*100) * ( V*Ah) = 1200 VAh = 1200 * ( 1/3600 Wh/C) * (3600 C) = 1200 Wh = 1.2 kWh.

If you're unsure of yourself, keep track of the units and not just the numerical values during a calculation. If the units of the result are nonsense, you've made some mistake.

1.) How long would this bulb stay lit running off of the fully charged batteries?

Deep cycle batteries are made to be discharged between 50% and 80%(check your manufacturer's info) without noticable impact on lifespan.

The amount of energy stored by the batteries 12 V * 2 * 100 Ah = 2400 VAh = 2400 Wh.

The amount of time it takes to fully discharge the batteries with a 7 W load: 2400 Wh / 7 W = 343 h.

If you discharge only to 50-80% as recommended you will get 172 to 274 hours of life on one charge.

2.) Not accounting for inefficiencies, how long would it take to charge the 2 batteries with 6 hours of full sun/day? (no bulb attached)

That might be the wrong question, depending on how fault tolerant you are. At mid US lattitudes you get approximately twice as much solar insolation on a typical summer day as on a typical winter day, not accounting for wheather.

Assuming the panel puts out the full 85 watt for 6 hours/day, which was the question asked, it will take 2400 Wh/(85 W * 6 hours/day * 24 h/day) = 113 hours to fully charge the batteries.

If you are only discharging the batteries by 50%-80% of their full capacity as recommended it will take 57-90 hours to recharge the batteries.

In terms of hours of full sunlight instead of hours of average sunlight it is much less; 14-23 hours not counting inefficiencies and niggles that will affect you in the real world.

Lead-acid batteries have a ~75-80% round-trip efficiency, so this is bit better than the performance you can expect when accounting for inefficiencies. They will discharge slightly quicker and charge slightly slower in the real world.

Batteries also have self-discharge, but it is quite negligible for lead acid batteries at room temperature or slightly above.

Deep cycle lead-acid batteries need proper care to minimize degradation through sulfation and corrosion; consult your manufacturer for detailed instructions on how the battery should be cycled, stored and topped up with sulfuric acid for best performance.

An 1100 W inverter seems quite large. Batteries have internal resistance; if you discharge them too quickly they become very hot. They can withstand short bursts of very high power, but not sustained high power.

If the batteries cannot withstand 1100 W sustained(consult your manufacturer) I believe you will want two fuses. A fast fuse for your inverter and a slow-blow fuse for your batteries so that your batteries can put out up to 1100 W for a short period of time, but not long enough to harm your batteries(again, consult your manufacturer).
 
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Equipment is usually made for a particular voltage, but current is allowed to vary over a large range.

If you intend for the system to grow over time by adding more batteries and more panels a parallel layout would seems to be the way to go. If you hook two batteries up in parallel you get twice the current at the same voltage; rather than twice the voltage at the same current.

But note the safety issues mentioned by RoughBeast. Safely hooking up in series is easier as long as the system doesn't have to be expanded.
 
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