Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[LondonJohn]

Here is some more information on North Carolina’s SBI forensic lab problems. At issue is how to report a negative confirmatory blood test, which is a slightly different situation from the one in the present case.

“In February, a three-judge panel declared Greg Taylor innocent of a 1991 murder, in part because of an SBI lab report that withheld the results of blood tests favorable to Taylor. A subsequent independent audit identified 229 similar cases where crucial test results were withheld or not reported…In Taylor's case, an alleged blood stain was the only physical evidence tying him to the murder. The presumptive test was positive; the confirmatory test was negative. The lab report made no mention of the negative confirmatory test. The same thing happened in Allen's case. Prosecutors said the most important evidence that Allen sexually assaulted and killed his girlfriend's daughter was a pair of bloody panties. A presumptive test indicated the stain was blood; two subsequent confirmatory tests were negative. They were not included in the lab report.

In both cases, the SBI lab reports simply said there ‘were chemical indications of blood.’ Several North Carolina prosecutors have said they understood this phrase to mean the evidence had blood on it, and they were unaware that confirmatory tests had been negative. The other labs, with one exception, were clear in their reporting of test results, Wolf found.

The FBI's written policy directed the analyst first to report the positive presumptive test results. If the confirmatory test is negative, the analyst would write, ‘Further testing could not confirm the presence of human blood.’”

Interesting. And yes, it's bad enough not to report a negative confirmatory test. But - as you say - the situation in the Kercher case was even worse: a failure to report a negative for a presumptive blood test.

 

[LondonJohn]

Incidentally, since when was it illegal to photograph a girl of under 21 years of age wearing shorts and a halter top?

There's a world of difference between something that's arguably inappropriate for the context (a woman of any age posing outside the cottage in a bikini, for example, would clearly be inappropriate) and something that's against the law. I suggest that anyone assuming this ludicrous air of "moral outrage" at the photos of Knox's sisters outside the cottage in Perugia should go to any public beach or swimming pool, and should immediately start loudly denouncing any parent/guardian who lets girls of 6-18 years old wear nothing but a swimming costume......

 

[Rolfe]

I think Maya C is saying that Amanda is guilty anyway, but she might understand why people should be trying to get her freed if the fictional Amanda was a more likeable figure. Or something like that.

OK, if that's what she meant, I misunderstood her post.

You've got this slightly wrong: it was the Guildford Four who were living in a squat - or to be exact, 3 of them; the other was the English girlfriend of one of the young men. And I don't think they were petty criminals - just young Irishmen trying to get jobs in London. The police were apparently tipped off by one of the other squat-dwellers after an argument over Irish politics.

The Maguire Seven were relatives of Gerry Conlon, who was one of the Guildford Four, and their "crime" didn't even happen! They were found guilty of handling explosives after a glove found in Annie Maguire's kitchen supposedly tested positive for gelignite - but the test was as flawed as the one that "found" Meredith's DNA on Raffaele's kitchen knife.

Sorry, I have clearly got the groups mixed up. The principle still stands though, I think - give a dog a bad name and hang him. By the way, the scientist who "found" the expolsives residue on the Maguire glove was the same person who "found" the anomalous and highly dodgy-looking evidence in the Lockerbie case. He left under a cloud because of that, in the middle of the Lockerbie investigation, but his solo work on the Lockerbie evidence was still accepted as gospel despite its highly irregular provenance.

Actually we do: the Dando murder occurred at a time when the UK was at war with Serbia, and NATO planes had just bombed a Belgrade TV station, killing several people. Jill Dando was a well-known TV presenter - hence the revenge attack.

Agents of the Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic had killed a number of people in other countries using a single-shot weapon disguised as a mobile phone. Witnesses apparently reported seeing a man loitering in Dando's street fiddling with a mobile phone shortly before the murder, and a man with the same description walking hurriedly away immediately afterwards.

Yes, I'm aware of that and I agree it seems the likeliest explanation. However we don't know who that person was, and we don't have any more than reasonable supposition to support the conclusion.

It's more than a principle: the Perugia authorities seem intent on letting Guede out with as short a sentence as can be by any stretch wangled; and when he comes out he will still be laughing at the justice system with good reason.

Why do you think the Italian authorities want to let Guede off with the minimum punishment and come down hard on Amanda and Raffaele, if that's indeed what is going on?

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

At the risk of completely veering off-piste, I am one of those who think that the most likely suspect IS Barry George. However, I was convinced long before his successful appeal (and subsequent acquittal on retrial) that he should never have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.

Maybe we need a new thread on this, because personally I don't see how George could possibly have done it. I incline to the Serbian hit-man theory, for want of any other plausible suggestion. However, maybe we don't need a new thread, because I don't have the time or energy to get into that one right now and justice was served eventually anyway.

Rolfe.

 

[RoseMontague]

Why do you think the Italian authorities want to let Guede off with the minimum punishment and come down hard on Amanda and Raffaele, if that's indeed what is going on?

Rolfe.

The only evidence of this is that Guede was not charged with burglary or theft, not the length of the sentence or the granting of mitigating factors. These charges along with staging fell on RS and AK.

I believe this was done to avoid messing with the theory of the crime, not to give Rudy a break.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

sexual assault as defined under Italian law

The only evidence of this is that Guede was not charged with burglary or theft, not the length of the sentence or the granting of mitigating factors. These charges along with staging fell on RS and AK.

I believe this was done to avoid messing with the theory of the crime, not to give Rudy a break.

RoseMontague,

I don't know enough about Italian rape/sexual assault law to be certain, but maybe someone else does. By not testing the putative semen stain with a confirmatory test, the Italian authorities might have knowingly or unknowingly benefitted Guede, assuming that the test were positive and would lead to a more serious charge. Would he have been less likely to have been given mitigation if he were convicted of rape, as opposed to sexual assault?

 

[billyryan]

If Frank Sfarzo is right Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti can verify Patriza Stefanoni's results as regards the finding of the DNA on the blade and the bra clasp,but because of the negative test for bleach the starch found where the knife and blade meet yet absolutely no traces of blood.Merridiths DNA is not on the blade because it was used to stab her,it got there by some other means.Like wise Raffaele's DNA profile on the bra clasp along with two or three other partial profiles,planted by person or persons unknown

I suspect the independent DNA experts know what happened,and that world recognition is awaiting them if they can prove it.What are there chances

 

[Chris_Halkides]

other possibilities

If Frank Sfarzo is right Stefano Conti and Carla Vecchiotti can verify Patriza Stefanoni's results as regards the finding of the DNA on the blade and the bra clasp,but because of the negative test for bleach the starch found where the knife and blade meet yet absolutely no traces of blood.Merridiths DNA is not on the blade because it was used to stab her,it got there by some other means.Like wise Raffaele's DNA profile on the bra clasp along with two or three other partial profiles,planted by person or persons unknown

I suspect the independent DNA experts know what happened,and that world recognition is awaiting them if they can prove it.What are there chances

billyryan,

The other DNA might have also arisen from contamination or secondary transfer. However, its presence is significant, no matter how it got there. If 2-3 other people deposited DNA in an innocent manner, how can one be sure that Raffaele's DNA were not also deposited in an innocent manner?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

attractiveness as a motivation for Knox'x supporters

OK, if that's what she meant, I misunderstood her post.

Rolfe,

I think that Maya C was talking out of both sides of her mouth, trying to argue that some supporters were sexually attracted to Ms. Knox while simultaneous criticizing her looks/demeanor. Some commenters at this and other threads have said that if Amanda Knox were not pretty, there would not be such interest in her case, relative to other perceived injustices.

I have never seen anyone attempt to support this statement beyond noting the fact that some of her supporters are middle-aged men. So, let’s see if this viewpoint makes sense. I will grant that heterosexual men and gay women might find Ms. Knox attractive. However, I doubt that heterosexual women or gay men would. Moreover, every Knox supporter of whom I am aware is also a supporter of Sollecito. Some of these supporters have a prior history of taking an interest in miscarriages of justice. The person who brought up the David Bain case in New Zealand case made a good point. Moreover, no one said anything comparable with respect to the Duke lacrosse case (to the best of my knowledge). I think that the argument in this case borders on the verge of sexism. For all of these reasons I dismiss the notion that the interest in her case is all about Ms. Knox’s looks. Two thousand wrongful convictions are a statistic, but two are a tragedy.

I also note that commenters elsewhere have recently accused Ms. Knox of the theft of Ms. Kercher’s money. This idea founders on the rock of Ms. Knox’s bank account. Can anyone supply a possible motive for Ms. Knox to take the money? If not, I suggest we dismiss this idea at the same time.

 

[spartacus]

I agree that it is sexism to state that those who are taking an active role in the case are doing so only because of sexual attraction. I don't see any of the wives of those involved complaining.

 

[zeb]

What I understand that AK had money in the bank also had a stand by money in a savings account in America.
Also she had a stand by Account which was her parents which was just a phone call away.
And while in Italy she was working part time, so therefore money was no motive for this crime.

 

[LondonJohn]

Incidentally, since when was it illegal to photograph a girl of under 21 years of age wearing shorts and a halter top?

There's a world of difference between something that's arguably inappropriate for the context (a woman of any age posing outside the cottage in a bikini, for example, would clearly be inappropriate) and something that's against the law. I suggest that anyone assuming this ludicrous air of "moral outrage" at the photos of Knox's sisters outside the cottage in Perugia should go to any public beach or swimming pool, and should immediately start loudly denouncing any parent/guardian who lets girls of 6-18 years old wear nothing but a swimming costume......

Just to clarify, my post above was meant to point out that the photos of the sisters outside the "murder cottage" (a house set on a public road in Perugia) are not in any way salacious in and of themselves. The clothing the girls were wearing in the photos is similar to that worn by most other girls of their ages in hot weather. It wasn't overly-revealing in any way, and nor would it have raised eyebrows to anyone walking down that street at that time. What - I wonder - should the girls have been wearing? Would denim jeans have been "inappropriate"? Or would nothing less than a long black dress with black sleeves have sufficed?

And, in response to a direct question, I believe (although most of this happened before I became interested in the case) that Bruce Fisher and others were not complaining about the posting of the photos of the girls outside the cottage per se, but rather they were complaining about the excess digging into the girls' lives (including, apparently, attempts to access their Facebook accounts), and the mocking of the girls' emotional behaviour.

This reminds me of the late Serbian comic, Milovan Ilić-Minimax, who called attention to the relationship with Croatia in an ironic way: ''Dobri neki ljudi, jako pristojni... Ja sedam, svi sedoše... ja usta', svi USTAŠE!?'' Did I mention that I speak French Serbian, by the way? Shall I try to shoehorn some French Serbian into every other post I make, in a lame attempt to "impress" people with my cosmopolitan knowledge of languages other than English? Shall I use a French Serbian literary quote as my JREF signature? Would that be clever? Would everyone think I was superior in some way?

 

[LondonJohn]

What I understand that AK had money in the bank also had a stand by money in a savings account in America.
Also she had a stand by Account which was her parents which was just a phone call away.
And while in Italy she was working part time, so therefore money was no motive for this crime.

All true, but this doesn't stop the groupthink crew from making the utterly spurious claim that Knox was almost down to her last Euro - coupled, of course, with equally spurious (and totally unsubstantiated) claim that Knox was burning her funds at a massively rapid rate on class A drugs.

Another angle on this that the same people often like to peddle is that since Knox had been "fired" or "demoted" from her bar job just before the murder (neither of which is substantiated), she had sudden increased worries about her source of funds. It doesn't seem to occur to these people that Knox hadn't been fired or demoted (if she was even fired or demoted) from an investment banking job - we're talking about a minimum-wage cash-in-hand bar job here. And in a university city with literally hundreds of bars and clubs, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Knox might not have been too concerned about the possibility of finding another similar job pretty quickly...

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Amanda quit on the 5th of November

All true, but this doesn't stop the groupthink crew from making the utterly spurious claim that Knox was almost down to her last Euro - coupled, of course, with equally spurious (and totally unsubstantiated) claim that Knox was burning her funds at a massively rapid rate on class A drugs.

Another angle on this that the same people often like to peddle is that since Knox had been "fired" or "demoted" from her bar job just before the murder (neither of which is substantiated), she had sudden increased worries about her source of funds. It doesn't seem to occur to these people that Knox hadn't been fired or demoted (if she was even fired or demoted) from an investment banking job - we're talking about a minimum-wage cash-in-hand bar job here. And in a university city with literally hundreds of bars and clubs, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Knox might not have been too concerned about the possibility of finding another similar job pretty quickly...

LondonJohn,

Capealadin and I had some long go-arounds about her work status last year, IIRC. As far as I am aware, it is not disputed that Amanda told Patrick on November 5th that she had to stop working because she was afraid to go out alone at night; therefore, she was still working until that time. And as zeb pointed out, Amanda's family had money (I have heard that it was about $9000) in a supplemental account, in addition to Amanda's account, which had about $4500.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Ron Williamson and Dennis Fritz

I agree that it is sexism to state that those who are taking an active role in the case are doing so only because of sexual attraction. I don't see any of the wives of those involved complaining.

Or take Ronald Williamson, the subject of the book, "The Innocent Man." No one said that Grisham or anyone else was sexually attracted to him. To claim that this explains the interest in the Knox/Sollecito case may be special pleading^TM.

 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Just to clarify, my post above was meant to point out that the photos of the sisters outside the "murder cottage" (a house set on a public road in Perugia) are not in any way salacious in and of themselves. The clothing the girls were wearing in the photos is similar to that worn by most other girls of their ages in hot weather. It wasn't overly-revealing in any way, and nor would it have raised eyebrows to anyone walking down that street at that time. What - I wonder - should the girls have been wearing? Would denim jeans have been "inappropriate"? Or would nothing less than a long black dress with black sleeves have sufficed?

:

So, are you telling us that you think those photo's were appropriate then?

 

[Matthew Best]

What photos are we talking about and why are they relevant?

 

[spartacus]

Just to clarify, my post above was meant to point out that the photos of the sisters outside the "murder cottage" (a house set on a public road in Perugia) are not in any way salacious in and of themselves. The clothing the girls were wearing in the photos is similar to that worn by most other girls of their ages in hot weather. It wasn't overly-revealing in any way, and nor would it have raised eyebrows to anyone walking down that street at that time. What - I wonder - should the girls have been wearing? Would denim jeans have been "inappropriate"? Or would nothing less than a long black dress with black sleeves have sufficed?

And, in response to a direct question, I believe (although most of this happened before I became interested in the case) that Bruce Fisher and others were not complaining about the posting of the photos of the girls outside the cottage per se, but rather they were complaining about the excess digging into the girls' lives (including, apparently, attempts to access their Facebook accounts), and the mocking of the girls' emotional behaviour.

This reminds me of the late Serbian comic, Milovan Ilić-Minimax, who called attention to the relationship with Croatia in an ironic way: ''Dobri neki ljudi, jako pristojni... Ja sedam, svi sedoše... ja usta', svi USTAŠE!?'' Did I mention that I speak French Serbian, by the way? Shall I try to shoehorn some French Serbian into every other post I make, in a lame attempt to "impress" people with my cosmopolitan knowledge of languages other than English? Shall I use a French Serbian literary quote as my JREF signature? Would that be clever? Would everyone think I was superior in some way?

You had me looking through the posters for the person with the foreign quotes but I think I know who you had in mind now. Yes I definitely think we need more Serbian around here. Do they have any police units with names as cool as Flying Squadron?

 

[spartacus]

What photos are we talking about and why are they relevant?

I wasn't really following this either. Here is the link.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cabre-photos-house-Meredith-Kercher-died.html

Couple of issues here. First off, I'll harp on my favorite BN regarding cultural differences.

Americans always go around in shorts, whereas Italians don't. In fact, one description of American tourists is i grassi in pantaloncini. (fat people in shorts)

That said, what's the biggy? BN was culturally correct but in the end that didn't prevent her from getting caught up in the calunnia dragnet. Lesson to be learned: give up freedom of speeach and it just isn't safe no matter how pc you are.

Second point: The PR super tanker must have been out of port to let them have their picture taken there. They were asked to go there by the magazine Gente. They were well meaning and trying to "get the word out" about the innocence of their sister. In the ended they got screwed by the tabloids. They should have had a better advisor.

Now I see what is up with the photo thing.

 

[Kaosium]

Yes, but the prosecution is appealing Sollecito's mitigation. Christianahannah thought that the mitigation might not be subject to appeal, but someone else, possibly LJ, thought otherwise.

You asked Frank on his blog, it was the very first comment in a post a couple months back. Frank responded that they could indeed appeal it.