General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[bigjelmapro]

And on a sidenote, why all the crickets when this is such a prestigious moment in the Fatah-Hamas unity agreement?

 

[Virus]

Fatah, Hamas, the "secular" and "totally-not-interested-in-Islamic-states" Muslim Brotherhood are grieving the loss of their "Muslim Lion" and fuming with outrage.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Well, Abbas at least stated that it was a positive step. Hamas denounced the killing of OBL. This being just one of the many contradictions between the two groups seen just these past 2 weeks. Guess we'll have to wait if Abbas contradicts himself in Arab media and names a street after OBL in the coming weeks/months...

 

[WildCat]

And on a sidenote, why all the crickets when this is such a prestigious moment in the Fatah-Hamas unity agreement?

Abbas just ruined any chance of the PA being recognized by responsible governments. Joining forces with a terrorist group is not a smart move.

 

[Skeptic]

I wonder how long until the first official "he's not really dead, it was all a mossad cover-up" conspiracy theory pops up about OBL.

 

[Matt Giwer]

yes I did....and you quoted it in the same post.

In fact your only objection was to claim it was an occupation.

If it is a military occupation then all the squattertowns constitute war crimes and everyone involved with them in any way including the resident squatters are war criminals.

If it is truly your objection that it is a military occupation then it is a criminal occupation and lots of Israelis have a date with the gallows IF they get the same justice they demand for the last batch of nazis that got hanged. It also invokes the WWII justification of total war in which even infants are not a mitigation of mass destruction.

Is this really where you want to go?

 

[Mycroft]

The Generals who were in charge of the General Government of Poland during WWII were running military dictatorships. They also could be removed at any time by the civilian dictator in Berlin. What is the difference? You might as well be arguing that was not a dictatorship either.

This is why I like Matt Giwer. He makes arguments like this and they're virtually the same as the arguments that proclaim the Mavi Mamara raid to be "piracy", Gaza to be "occupied" or Israeli disengagement to be "apartheid". Find a few superficial similarities, ignore all the differences, and then just repeat the proclamation endlessly. The only real difference is Matt here doesn't have international organizations such as "freegaza.org" or the ISM to back him up.

Part of me wonders if it isn't a brilliantly done parody, but I know it's some unnamed corollary of "Poe's Law".

 

[The Fool]

In fact your only objection was to claim it was an occupation.

well at least you have moved on from claiming I had none...

If it is a military occupation then all the squattertowns constitute war crimes and everyone involved with them in any way including the resident squatters are war criminals.

If it is truly your objection that it is a military occupation then it is a criminal occupation and lots of Israelis have a date with the gallows IF they get the same justice they demand for the last batch of nazis that got hanged. It also invokes the WWII justification of total war in which even infants are not a mitigation of mass destruction.

Is this really where you want to go?

Where I want to go is the place where your laughable claim that Netanyahu has dictatorial powers gets well and truly debunked. Can I assume we have arrived there seeing as you appear to want to move on to whining about the occupation?

 

[Virus]

What I don't get is why a Neo-Nazi and Holocaust denier would complain about accusations of antisemitism.

But I digress. He's already received more attention than he deserves.

 

[Matt Giwer]

but they did indeed have a dictator in charge...Hitler. Hitler was not subject to the German Judiciary in the same way Netanyahu is....also Hitler was not the leader of a coalition that could change and remove him at any time.

What conceivably does that have to do with the subject? If you can show the Palestinians consented to living under a Jewish dictatorship then you have a case. If you cannot then it is a dictatorship with no recognized authority.

so am I imagining things when I see the High court overrule the dictator (IDF) on where the wall is built in the west bank??

If you can show the Palestinian courts have authority over the israeli military governor then you might have a case.

As your best claim appears to be that the Israeli civilian courts have authority over the IDF, which they do not, then you are only confirming it is totally a jewish dictatorship.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/15/ap/middleeast/main4669293.shtml



as you see no difference between military occupation and civil dictatorship

Please notice I have always called it a military dictatorship. Please do not misrepresent what I have posted.

you use evidence for the existance of one to support the claimed existance of the other.

If it were a military occupation then there would be no squattertowns as the two are incompatible. Settling Germans in Poland was a named crime at Nuremberg even though those Germans did so voluntarily not at the direction of the government of Germany.

If the Israeli ruling executive collapsed tomorrow and the new leader ordered the IDF to do something they would be bound by Israeli rule of law to do it.....So the continued military occupation which you seem to equate to a civilian dictatorship is subject to the changing winds of Israeli democratic processes and rule of law. I don't know of too many dictatorships that are subject to removal in that way.....Not being subject to that sort of thing is kind of required for your average dictatorship.

In light of what I really said, that is a military dictatorship over a people who have no civil or human rights recognized by the military dictatorship which is unaccountable to those it keeps under its dictatorial rule, it is unclear why you think it is anything else.

It cannot be a military occupation because of the criminal squattertowns which are prohibited to military occupations -- the penalty is death by hanging.

you missed my question

"Question for you....was Bush the dictator of Afganistan prior to the elections, or the dictator of Iraq prior to the elections? "

I thought you were playing coy. Of course he was. I identified him as such short after he declared mission accomplished. It was his war and his conquest. What else would he be as commander in chief of the military?

 

[Matt Giwer]

...
so am I imagining things when I see the High court overrule the dictator (IDF) on where the wall is built in the west bank??

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/15/ap/middleeast/main4669293.shtml

It was good of you to post that one as the date is 2008. It exemplifies what I said earlier. The military ignores the civilian courts. What you present is still being ignored by the military. Nothing has changed since then.

You should know never to trust Israel to do the right thing. You will always be betrayed by your civilized expectations of a rule of law.

 

[Matt Giwer]

Hey...you guys are only smearing him because he's anti-Israel. Everybody who's anti-Israel gets smeared like that!

Anti-zionism is a moral imperative.

 

[theprestige]

I have to admit: Seeing The Fool arguing with Matt Giwer has totally redeemed this thread in my eyes.

 

[The Fool]

I have to admit: Seeing The Fool arguing with Matt Giwer has totally redeemed this thread in my eyes.

why don't you go take a flying leap? I am frankly sick and tired of you wallys constantly attempting to associate me with that guy....Skeptics recent pointless attempt to do this was sliced out and dumped into AAH....hopefully yours will too.

 

[The Fool]

It was good of you to post that one as the date is 2008. It exemplifies what I said earlier. The military ignores the civilian courts. What you present is still being ignored by the military. Nothing has changed since then.

rubbish, the route of the wall (for example) has been changed due to High court orders. The amount of facts needing to be ignored to prop up your use of the term "dictatorship" grows by the hour.

You should know never to trust Israel to do the right thing. You will always be betrayed by your civilized expectations of a rule of law.

I do have a lot of issues with things Israel does but I can't see how having a default belief is helpfull... Nor is using the term "dictator" fast and loose as a trolling chant.

 

[Pardalis]

Anti-zionism is a moral imperative.

We never see you speak out against the Burmese Junta's abuse of monks, or the Sri Lankan government's brutal take down of the Tamils.

Why is Israel's existence more important for you?

It was a rhetorical question, I don't really want you to tell me, I already know why.

 

[The Fool]

We never see you speak out against the Burmese Junta's abuse of monks, or the Sri Lankan government's brutal take down of the Tamils.

Why is Israel's existence more important for you?

It was a rhetorical question, I don't really want you to tell me, I already know why.

can we possibly have a morotorium on this tired old line? Accusing someone of being fixated on Israel/palestine in a thread dedicated to Israel/palestine is a little bit silly.

Pardalis....we fully understand that you think there are large numbers of anti-semites inhabiting JREF....no need to cruise by so many threads and drop the same accusations over and over.

 

[Pardalis]

can we possibly have a morotorium on this tired old line? Accusing someone of being fixated on Israel/palestine in a thread dedicated to Israel/palestine is a little bit silly.

He said that anti-Zionism is a "moral imperative". I could think of thousands of more pressing issues on Earth right now.

 

[The Fool]

He said that anti-Zionism is a "moral imperative". I could think of thousands of more pressing issues on Earth right now.

so? maybe you can provide a list of all topics that are important enough for you to be happy to allow to be discussed?

 

[Matt Giwer]

He fails to mention that Herodotus never even stepped foot in the region...

EDIT: And not an attempt to feed the troll. My page looks a lot cleaner with those special people on ignore.

So your position is the Palestinians were so well known he did not even have to get close to know of them.

That is odd. I would have expected from izziehuggers a blanket denial of reality.