Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Katody Matrass]

Picking a lock is a possibility. The simplicity of a pin cylinder makes it reliable but also easy to pick. Commercial locks in the US have a special indicator pin that leaves a tell if the lock has been picked. I don't know if this is standard on the euro cylinders of even if the Perugia cops had the lock checked.

I don't think lock bumping leaves any traces.
But I agree Guede simply got in through the window. It's the simplest scenario, well supported by evidence.

 

[Antony]

This is the sort of post that really angers me in all these miscarriage of justice threads. The accused was a bad or unappealling character in some way or other. Therefore he/she is guilty, even if the evidence is a crock of nonsense. Or at least, who cares if the conviction was unsound, the person in jail is not worth caring about.

I think Maya C is saying that Amanda is guilty anyway, but she might understand why people should be trying to get her freed if the fictional Amanda was a more likeable figure. Or something like that.

But there's little point in trying to engage with people like Maya C - she's just the latest in a series of guilters who have staged a flounce in this forum, accusing us of various degrees of unreasonableness.

...

But far far more often the accused is someone it is easy to believe might have done it. The Maguire Seven were petty criminals living in a squat.

You've got this slightly wrong: it was the Guildford Four who were living in a squat - or to be exact, 3 of them; the other was the English girlfriend of one of the young men. And I don't think they were petty criminals - just young Irishmen trying to get jobs in London. The police were apparently tipped off by one of the other squat-dwellers after an argument over Irish politics.

The Maguire Seven were relatives of Gerry Conlon, who was one of the Guildford Four, and their "crime" didn't even happen! They were found guilty of handling explosives after a glove found in Annie Maguire's kitchen supposedly tested positive for gelignite - but the test was as flawed as the one that "found" Meredith's DNA on Raffaele's kitchen knife.

...

We have no idea at all who killed Jill Dando,

Actually we do: the Dando murder occurred at a time when the UK was at war with Serbia, and NATO planes had just bombed a Belgrade TV station, killing several people. Jill Dando was a well-known TV presenter - hence the revenge attack.

Agents of the Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic had killed a number of people in other countries using a single-shot weapon disguised as a mobile phone. Witnesses apparently reported seeing a man loitering in Dando's street fiddling with a mobile phone shortly before the murder, and a man with the same description walking hurriedly away immediately afterwards.

...

Maybe it doesn't matter in quite the same way in this case, because we know the real murderer was indeed convicted for the crime and is behind bars for it. Nevertheless, the principle remains.

It's more than a principle: the Perugia authorities seem intent on letting Guede out with as short a sentence as can be by any stretch wangled; and when he comes out he will still be laughing at the justice system with good reason.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Just an observation here: CNN is promoting an hour-long look at the Amanda Knox case to be broadcast Sunday at 8 p.m. (ET), presumably to be repeated during the week. I'd be interested in reading comments/responses.

The problem I have with all of the documentaries so far aired is there is so much complexity to this case it is impossible to cover it all in 1 hour. Thus these broadcasts cut corners in relating the evidence so they inevitably do not present both sides in thorough detail. I suspect this upcoming event will be similar.

 

[Dan O.]

I don't think lock bumping leaves any traces.

Though most information on lock forensics talk about tool marks left by the pick, I have seen numerous locks with a special tumbler that would leave a mark on the cylinder if the lock were opened with a pick or the wrong key. It's funny that none of the forensic pages ever mention this.

 

[Matthew Best]

Actually we do: the Dando murder occurred at a time when the UK was at war with Serbia, and NATO planes had just bombed a Belgrade TV station, killing several people. Jill Dando was a well-known TV presenter - hence the revenge attack.

[Off topic]It's a theory (one which was widely disseminated at the time of the murder), but hardly something which could be called "knowledge". It's no more than a guess.[/Off topic]

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Newsweek photoessay

An alert reader pointed out the following passage on page 2 in a Newsweek photoessay on the case: “[Amanda Knox] first said she came home the next morning and discovered Kercher’s body, but now she says she was in the kitchen and heard Kercher’s screams.” This photoessay refers to events in 2009, whereas Ms. Knox only assented to her presence in the cottage for a brief period of time (less than a few days) in November of 2007. Page 3 says, “and for their conflicting accounts of the night of the murder.” This, too, is nonsense, but it is not quite as bad as the use of the word “now” in the first quote. Besides, it was not exactly Amanda who even discovered Meredith’s body. Doesn’t anybody at Newsweek do any fact-checking, or are they too broke?

 

[Antony]

[Off topic]It's a theory (one which was widely disseminated at the time of the murder), but hardly something which could be called "knowledge". It's no more than a guess.[/Off topic]

Who said it was "knowledge"? Rolfe said "we have no idea who killed Jill Dando"; and I replied "actually we do" (... have an idea).

As for it being a theory and a guess, it's decidedly a better one than the police and prosecution claim that the mentally retarded Barry George, with no access to tools or a workshop, successfully converted a dummy gun into a working model and carried out the killing.

 

[LondonJohn]

An alert reader pointed out the following passage on page 2 in a Newsweek photoessay on the case: “[Amanda Knox] first said she came home the next morning and discovered Kercher’s body, but now she says she was in the kitchen and heard Kercher’s screams.” This photoessay refers to events in 2009, whereas Ms. Knox only assented to her presence in the cottage for a brief period of time (less than a few days) in November of 2007. Page 3 says, “and for their conflicting accounts of the night of the murder.” This, too, is nonsense, but it is not quite as bad as the use of the word “now” in the first quote. Besides, it was not exactly Amanda who even discovered Meredith’s body. Doesn’t anybody at Newsweek do any fact-checking, or are they too broke?

I think it may be appropriate here to point out the following press release:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-11-12/newsweek-daily-beast-merge-announcement/

Which I may conveniently paraphrase as the following: "Failing and bankrupt weekly news magazine behemoth seeks last-ditch attempt to re-invent itself through tie-in with vanity online news portal which will never make any money either, but which is being bankrolled into obscurity by rich and stupid investors."

And of course I needn't point out that The Daily Beast is the regular purchaser of freelance work by one "Barbie"^TM Latza Nadeau....

 

[spartacus]

Barbie Nadeau and Andrea Vogt hover over AK...
http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.co...basis-of-cartwheels-and-kisses/journalists-2/

So Barbie is not her real name? I get confused with all of these "TM" people.

 

[LondonJohn]

Who said it was "knowledge"? Rolfe said "we have no idea who killed Jill Dando"; and I replied "actually we do" (... have an idea).

As for it being a theory and a guess, it's decidedly a better one than the police and prosecution claim that the mentally retarded Barry George, with no access to tools or a workshop, successfully converted a dummy gun into a working model and carried out the killing.

At the risk of completely veering off-piste, I am one of those who think that the most likely suspect IS Barry George. However, I was convinced long before his successful appeal (and subsequent acquittal on retrial) that he should never have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.

And that's one of the reasons why it doesn't really matter to me personally whether Knox and/or Sollecito actually were involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher - although I currently lean heavily towards their non-involvement. My chief concern was that they should never have been convicted of the crime to the criminal standard of proof. Fortunately, the law (in its wisdom) does not differentiate between "not-guilty" and "innocent", since - as I've pointed out before - it's often impossible for someone to prove their innocence, and nor are they required to do so in a trial.

I think that if (when) Knox and Sollecito are acquitted on appeal, they won't have any trouble rehabilitating their image, since most people will correctly equate "non-guilt" with "innocence" in their case. This won't be another OJ Simpson....

 

[LondonJohn]

Barbie Nadeau and Andrea Vogt hover over AK...
http://www.beforeyoutakethatpill.co...basis-of-cartwheels-and-kisses/journalists-2/

So Barbie is not her real name? I get confused with all of these "TM" people.

"Barbie" is her chosen diminutive of her full forename Barbara (though quite why someone would choose that particular diminutive is... erm... interesting in itself). Since adding trademark suffixes to people who don't use the name on their birth or marriage certificate as their nom de plume has become so very fashionable elsewhere, I just thought I'd join in

 

[Antony]

At the risk of completely veering off-piste, I am one of those who think that the most likely suspect IS Barry George. However, I was convinced long before his successful appeal (and subsequent acquittal on retrial) that he should never have been convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.

We would need to set up another thread (maybe one to cover apparent miscarriages of justice in general) to go into this in detail. But, trust me, when you look at the facts of the case, the idea that George was capable of pulling off something like that and hiding it from the world becomes more and more laughable.

 

[PhantomWolf]

If people really only considered fighting against the perceived miscarriages of justice of cute people, how did this guy get someone fighting for him?

 

[LondonJohn]

If people really only considered fighting against the perceived miscarriages of justice of cute people, how did this guy get someone fighting for him?

Of course, this whole "It's only because she's a cutie" argument is nonsense spread around by people (a few of whom, it should be noted, have a relationship with the murder victim which might seem slightly.... improper..... to many) who have run out of decent intellectual arguments to oppose those of us who argue that the convictions of Knox (and that "cutie" Sollecito as well, don't forget!) are unsafe and unjust.

And the only other people in whom I've previously invested any time or energy as miscarriage of justice subjects are Abdelbaset Mohamed Ali Al-Megrahi and Barry George. And they look like this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...i-Mohmed-Al-Megrahi-expected-to-be-freed.html

and this:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23524844-barry-george-cleared-of-jill-dando-murder.do

Neither of these characters, I think it's safe to say, fits the standard definition of "cutie"...

 

[Justinian2]

You can't open a decent cylinder lock with a deadbolt using just a knife. The door to the cottage was definitely not either lock-picked or forced open from a locked position. The only possibility for Guede entering the cottage via the door is if it was already opened for him by someone with a key.

I consider it to be a viable possibility that Guede was conducting his post-window-break surveillance of the cottage from the shadows (with the intention of climbing in through the window once five minutes had passed) when Meredith unexpectedly arrived home. He could then either have approached and offered to help (assuming she'd seen the broken window) or he could have rushed her as she opened the front door.

I do not consider it to be a viable possibility that Knox let Guede into the cottage as part of some sort of "rape prank" or anything similar.

Actually you can. If you push or pull on the door the little side thing will sometimes drop into the hole making it possible to push the bolt back. In my house, the lock was installed on the inside of the studio apartment so that the bolt was exposed. Anyway, it looks like one of the seven boyfriends (all shorter than the six foot snow white), practiced on another door and removed the wood in front of the latch bolt on another door. That also left the bolt exposed with the same result.

The rest of my doors all have strong dead bolts, so this 'lock' provided the easiest access to my home.

The robbers of my house very carefully removed the rings from the jewelry case and closed everything up so that the theft wouldn't be noticed. Unfortunately for them, they moved something in front of the Virgin Mary statue. That alerted my wife.

Of course Meredith's body could not be hidden, so the subtle approach wouldn't have worked.

My wife's careful placement of her things told the story. When her carefully placed things were disturbed, that was all the evidence my wife needed. So why do cops run into a crime scene like bulls in a china shop as they did in Amanda's flat?

 

[Justinian2]

I wonder if he has a book deal waiting for him when he gets released.

Could be. Might be titled "How I was a serial killer and nobody found out".

 

[Justinian2]

I was trying to find the tape of her interrogation but the cops forgot that part. An interesting quote from the less fair Queen however:

There was a pair of glass slippers left on top of the clothes so I am thinking it could be the more or less fair Beauty and even though her and the Sleepy one had only met once at a pot party they must have conspired to team up on this one. My theory is the other Beauty believed she was the mostest fairest of all and sent the Beast to assist in the deed, trying to put the blame on the less fairest queen.

Update:
The Beast has been ruled guilty in the first instance.

I'm always glad to have people respond to my posts, but what made you that giddy?

What does your parable to Amanda Knox mean?

 

[spartacus]

Was the all night interrogation done by Polizia di Stato or Squadra Mobile? Does anyone know? And does anyone know more about the differences between these two police units and how they interact? Also there are claims Mignini did not "order" the arrest of Frank Sfarzo but my understanding is that the PM is in charge of investigations and gives orders to the police?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Confirmatory testing and disclosure in North Carolina

Here is some more information on North Carolina’s SBI forensic lab problems. At issue is how to report a negative confirmatory blood test, which is a slightly different situation from the one in the present case.

“In February, a three-judge panel declared Greg Taylor innocent of a 1991 murder, in part because of an SBI lab report that withheld the results of blood tests favorable to Taylor. A subsequent independent audit identified 229 similar cases where crucial test results were withheld or not reported…In Taylor's case, an alleged blood stain was the only physical evidence tying him to the murder. The presumptive test was positive; the confirmatory test was negative. The lab report made no mention of the negative confirmatory test. The same thing happened in Allen's case. Prosecutors said the most important evidence that Allen sexually assaulted and killed his girlfriend's daughter was a pair of bloody panties. A presumptive test indicated the stain was blood; two subsequent confirmatory tests were negative. They were not included in the lab report.

In both cases, the SBI lab reports simply said there ‘were chemical indications of blood.’ Several North Carolina prosecutors have said they understood this phrase to mean the evidence had blood on it, and they were unaware that confirmatory tests had been negative. The other labs, with one exception, were clear in their reporting of test results, Wolf found.

The FBI's written policy directed the analyst first to report the positive presumptive test results. If the confirmatory test is negative, the analyst would write, ‘Further testing could not confirm the presence of human blood.’”

 

[LondonJohn]

Was the all night interrogation done by Polizia di Stato or Squadra Mobile? Does anyone know? And does anyone know more about the differences between these two police units and how they interact? Also there are claims Mignini did not "order" the arrest of Frank Sfarzo but my understanding is that the PM is in charge of investigations and gives orders to the police?

I think this was almost exclusively a Squadra Mobile affair. The Squadra Mobile is a unit of the Polizia di Stato - they are not separate independent entities. The Squadra Mobile is a small "elite" unit of plain-clothes state police who investigate the most serious crimes - murder, rape, abduction, serious drugs offences etc. They often act directly at the behest of prosecutors who are investigating particular crimes. They are the unit that are in most competition with the Carabinieri for the investigation of serious and organised crime in Italy.

Regarding Frank, it's unclear as to why the police arrived at his doorstep to arrest him in the first place. If it were related to the Kercher case, then it's hard to imagine that Mignini wasn't involved. But it's possible that the arrest was completely unrelated to that murder investigation, in which case Mignini might not have had anything to do with it.