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General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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bikerdruid said:
of course, israel keeps :rolleyes:up their end of treaties....
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Please explain how that illustration is evidence of Israel not keeping up their end of treaties.

But we both know you won't be able to do that, don't we? I fully expect you to ignore this post, hand-wave it away, or respond with a complete non sequitur. I'd be shocked if you could explain what your illustration has to do with Israeli treaties.
 
WildCat said:
Please explain how that illustration is evidence of Israel not keeping up their end of treaties.

But we both know you won't be able to do that, don't we? I fully expect you to ignore this post, hand-wave it away, or respond with a complete non sequitur. I'd be shocked if you could explain what your illustration has to do with Israeli treaties.
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certainly the last two maps, from 1967 to 2000, clearly show israeli annexation since the 1967 war and peace that ended it.
the west bank is largely gone as palestinian territory.
 
bikerdruid said:
of course, israel keeps :rolleyes:up their end of treaties....
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http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2011/03/map-that-lies-and-one-that-doesnt.html

picture.php
 
bikerdruid said:
certainly the last two maps, from 1967 to 2000, clearly show israeli annexation since the 1967 war and peace that ended it.
the west bank is largely gone as palestinian territory.
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I see you're going with "complete non sequitur"!

I'm shocked shocked shocked!

You were supposed to illustrate broken treaties, remember? :rolleyes:
 
WildCat said:
Yes, I will squabble over the Palestinian refusal to do the things they agreed to in past agreements before they make any new ones. Likud has squat to do with it. Their documents are not official Israeli anything.
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Yes, besides being the party in power in Israel they are largely irrelevant.

More blather from you. It's obvious you don't really want a "serious discussion". You just want to bash Israel in knee-jerk fashion while nothing at all is expected from the Palestinians.
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How many times have I got to point out that I am not and have never said "nothing at all is expected from the palestinians" Much is expected, Stop attacking Israel, cooperate in establishing sensible borders are the ones that come to mind as the most important. How many times do I have to explain this before you give up?
 
Sword_Of_Truth said:
As the philosopher William Smith pointed out, "If you don't start nuthin, there won't be nuthin".

The arabs shouldn't have started sumthin.
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They didn't start it. They were after their own sovereign states after centuries and domination by other powers, only to find that outsiders came along to set up their own state, by force if necessary, where they lived. Resisting by all force available to such events is common throughout history, no point blaming the victims. The Israelis might have seen things differently, but that doesn't make the Palestinians see things that way.
 
a_unique_person said:
What's funny about it? Say what you think. And by nobody do you mean biker?
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I've never seen you, or the Fool, or Firegarden, or DDT accuse Jordan of stealing Palestinian land.

I guess for one to be a thief one has to be a Jew right?

Why are we always only talking about Western Palestine? What about the Eastern side? Wasn't that "Palestinian land" too?

Here's a more objective, un-ideological map:

PalestineMap-952x1024.jpg


That whole yellow part was also "Palestine". Now it's not, so where's the uproar? Where are all the defenders of Palestinians' right of return to their homeland?

The whole shebang is their "homeland is it not?
 
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Pardalis said:
I've never seen you, or the Fool, or Firegarden, or DDT accuse Jordan of stealing Palestinian land.

I guess for one to be a thief one has to be a Jew right?

Why are we always only talking about Western Palestine? What about the Eastern side? Wasn't that "Palestinian land" too?

Here's a more objective, un-ideological map:

PalestineMap-952x1024.jpg


That whole yellow part was also "Palestine". Now it's not, so where's the uproar? Where are all the defenders of Palestinians' right of return to their homeland?

The whole shebang is their "homeland is it not?
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You are just being offensive. How about instead of setting up someone for your usual anti-semitic accusations, you just ask people what they think then see what you think. The whole carve up of ethic areas throughout history by imperialist powers has been a disaster, with perhaps the exception of SE Asia, which seems to have been largely left as it was found. Jordan was once such example. It was nothing to do with Jews or Arabs, but the British Empire overlords. Yes, it was wrong, and it ignored completely the aspirations of those who lived there. Do you want to argue it wasn't wrong? If not, I guess we are done. I would like to know what you source your map from, IIRC, it's not that right.
 
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Pardalis said:
I've never seen you, or the Fool, or Firegarden, or DDT accuse Jordan of stealing Palestinian land.

I guess for one to be a thief one has to be a Jew right?

Why are we always only talking about Western Palestine? What about the Eastern side? Wasn't that "Palestinian land" too?
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can you clear something up for us. You are being critical of people because you think they don't criticize Jordan for doing what you say they should do?

you sound it out here..
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4210593#post4210593

"Or it could it be annexed to Jordan, which is 98% Arab anyway?"

you are even more positive here...

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4302706#post4302706

No. As I've said in another thread, Jordan should annex the West Bank.


all very confusing?? You seem to favor Jordan taking Palestinian land yet are critical of people you believe agree??

Personally I am a little bemused about being on your list....as I am indeed critical of Jordan stealing palestinian land...When they were the occupier of the west bank I said It was a mistake to keep the land and they should have given it to the palestinians living there for their own state...

said it here

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4293181#post4293181

I think the biggest "miss" the Jordanians managed was to fail to create a palestinian state on the west bank when they occupied it.

maybe you could clear all that up and review my position on your list?
 
The Fool said:
can you clear something up for us. You are being critical of people because you think they don't criticize Jordan for doing what you say they should do?
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No. I personally think that neither Jordan or Israel are "stolen" land. They are products of historical events that cannot be changed, just like Canada is not "stolen" native land. If the Palestinians want a Palestinian state, they've already got one, it's called Jordan. Instead of being in a constant state of war, trying to hold on scraps of land, they could be annexed to their strong Arab neighbor, which population already consists of a majority of Palestinians. In my mind that would solve the problem, if the pan-Arabic solidarity was a real and genuine thing.

But that being said, if you keep insisting Israel is stolen land, you should apply the same logic, even if I consider it a failed logic, if you want to be consistent, to Jordan as well, which you don't, which makes me wonder why. The only thing that makes Israel different is well... you know what.

What I'm criticizing is that people like you like to talk about injustices done to the Palestinians by Israel, while just next door there's a huge country that did and does the same thing.


The Fool said:
When they were the occupier of the west bank I said It was a mistake to keep the land and they should have given it to the palestinians living there for their own state...
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I'm not talking about the West Bank, I'm talking about the whole lot of land that was called "Palestine", which includes today's Jordan. You don't seem tp have a problem with that one. Only Israel seems to be where it's not supposed to, Israel is the illegitimate state according to the raving anti-Israel crowd, while Jordan too is sitting on "Palestinian land".

We always see the map of the ever-decreasing Palestinian territory West of the Jordan river. What about the extinct Palestinian territories East of it?
 
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Pardalis said:
What about the east side of the Jordan river?

Nobody seems to mind that 100% of that territory is no longer Palestinian territory. Funny nobody seems to care about the occupied Jordanian Palestinian territories.
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Good point.

I just watched a TV show ( An Idiot Abroad ) where the character went, by camel, from Israel to Petra and the scenery looked like a whole lot of nothing. Just think all those West Bankers could flood across the River Jordan, set up camp in an Arab country and everybody goes and has a nice life.

As an aside...Now that Egypt has decided to open the Rafah border crossing, what, if any effect will this have on upcoming "freedom flotillas" ?

BD...that's the Sinai
 
Stout said:
I just watched a TV show ( An Idiot Abroad ) where the character went, by camel, from Israel to Petra and the scenery looked like a whole lot of nothing. Just think all those West Bankers could flood across the River Jordan, set up camp in an Arab country and everybody goes and has a nice life.
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They could, if the governments of those Arab countries didn't also treat them like second-class crap. In Jordan, for instance, there are over a third of a million Palestinians still living in refugee camps, and while Jordanian citizenship was granted to the Palestinians after the Jordanians occupied the West Bank, that citizenship is now being revoked.
 
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