Putin on Scandinavian tour....

You have no arguments. Which is understandable.

"understandable" you have repeatly stated you don't understand. Which seems reasonable.

No arguments are possible afterall. But what continues to grieve me is your insistance that an argument for killing civilians opposing a dictatorship, is somehow defensable.

Depends. Do you regard this as a civilian:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/51608000/jpg/_51608959_reutersfirerpg.jpg

Because thats who Gaddafi's attacking right now.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You favor Ghaddafi's all-out killing and raping of his own people for their audacity to question his dictatorial rule.

"All-out killing and raping" was the kind of thing that went on in the DRC. In Libya? Not remotely. The death toll is way too low. Heck Gaddafi forces retook Kufra a couple of days ago. Death toll? Zero. If you think thats all-out killing you must have slept through most of human history.

As for raping there is no credible evidence for delibate use of rape as a weapon by Gaddafi's forces. There is almost certianly some rape going on since thats the kind of thing that happens in war but nothing systematic and certianly nothing like the former yugoslavia. So again the claim of all out just makes it pretty clear you don't know much about what is going on in Libya.
 
"All-out killing and raping" was the kind of thing that went on in the DRC. In Libya? Not remotely. The death toll is way too low. Heck Gaddafi forces retook Kufra a couple of days ago. Death toll? Zero. If you think thats all-out killing you must have slept through most of human history.

As for raping there is no credible evidence for delibate use of rape as a weapon by Gaddafi's forces. There is almost certianly some rape going on since thats the kind of thing that happens in war but nothing systematic and certianly nothing like the former yugoslavia. So again the claim of all out just makes it pretty clear you don't know much about what is going on in Libya.
You favor Ghaddafi's all-out killing and raping of his own people for their audacity to question his dictatorial rule. So be it.
Edited by LashL: 
Removed breach.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Please show it is a strawman.

1)I don't particularly favour Gaddafi's actions. I think we can all agree it would be convenient if he stepped down at this point

2)Your claims of all out killing and raping either reflect a staggering degree of ignorance on your part or an instulting degree of intellectual dishonesty. It is also disrespectful towards those people who've been on the reviving of attempts at all out killing by the state but I guess the people of cambodia are used to that by now.
 
1)I don't particularly favour Gaddafi's actions. I think we can all agree it would be convenient if he stepped down at this point

2)Your claims of all out killing and raping either reflect a staggering degree of ignorance on your part or an instulting degree of intellectual dishonesty. It is also disrespectful towards those people who've been on the reviving of attempts at all out killing by the state but I guess the people of cambodia are used to that by now.

Edited by jhunter1163: 
Edited for civility.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You favor Ghaddafi's all-out killing and raping of his own people for their audacity to question his dictatorial rule. So be it.
Edited by LashL: 
Removed quote of moderated content.
How about you show some evidence that Gadaffi is actually "all-out killing and raping his own people", before stating it as fact.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Don, I see no change of scope announced from NATO. I see no "on-the-ground" change of scope from NATO in regard to the UN Resolution. I see only leaders of NATO members saying they would like to see regime change.

And who, really, can blame them?

If you can't see a change in scope then your desire for regime change in Libya has blinded you to NATO's actions. The UN resolution provided for action to protect civilians.

NATO has chosen to interpret it as providing tactical air support for an armed insurrection. Regime change has been made a pre-requisite for suspending action.
 
It appears that most Left-O-Matics possess insufficient reading comprehension to dope out the meanings of U.N. resolutions. This has been an ongoing problem among Left-O-Matics for decades.

It is often necessary to quote and highlight pertinent parts of resolutions in order to bring them to the Left-O-Matics' attention. Thereafter it is often necessary to argue endlessly about what the usually simple and straightforward phrase actually means. But I won't be doing that today. I will simply offer a link to the text of the so-called "no fly" resolution, highlight the pertinent text, and offer a short explanation as to it's self-evident meaning:


http://www.newstatesman.com/2011/03/libyan-arab-states-resolution

4.Authorizes Member States that have notified the Secretary-General, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in cooperation with the Secretary-General, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the Member States concerned to inform the Secretary-General immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;

When the U.N, acting under Chapter VII, authorizes "all necessary measures" to force compliance with a stated aim of a resolution, then the object of the resolution should immediately take refuge in the deepest and most secure bunker he has at his disposal. Because "all necessary measures" means "all necessary measures" - in this particular case, excluding only a foreign occupation force on the ground. Get it?

Still don't get it? Try thinking of it this way: "All necessary measures" are authorized to (permanently) stop Kadaffy's attacks on civilians and civilian areas. Up to and including an asteroid, if that's what it takes. Preferably a small asteroid. But in this case, a foreign occupation force on the ground is excluded. For the moment.

As to the legality of killing Kadaffy: Once "all necessary measures" have been authorized and military action has ensued, then a de facto state of war exists. Those against whom the resolution and the military action has been directed, including leaders, are in fact combatants. Combatants are not considered to be "collateral damage". Killing combatants is not considered to be "assassination". Thus no international law will be violated when Kadaffy is killed.

Get it now?
 
Last edited:
Left-O-Matics
Are you saying Putin is a Left-O-Matic?

to take all necessary measures, [...], to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack
First, if the objective is to protect civilians, then airstrikes in civilian-populated areas are a bad idea. Some 'collateral damage' is unavoidable, and it makes no sense to kill civilians in order to protect civilians.

Second, it's simply not a necessary measure to kill Gadaffi. To protect civilians NATO should bomb attacking forces from either side, then get both sides to negotiate a cease-fire.

p.s. I shudder to think how you imagine having an astroid drop on Tripoli would protect civilians...
 
Are you saying Putin is a Left-O-Matic?

Yes. he appears to suffer from reading comprehension problems associated with extreme leftism.

First, if the objective is to protect civilians, then airstrikes in civilian-populated areas are a bad idea. Some 'collateral damage' is unavoidable, and it makes no sense to kill civilians in order to protect civilians.

If the objective is to minimize civilian casualties, then shutting down the war machine of old house-to-house-boy is a very good idea. Doing so will require attacking the targets at their actual locations. The Duck of Death is unlikely to conveniently transport his entire war machine out into the desert in order to satisfy your targeting requirements.

Second, it's simply not a necessary measure to kill Gadaffi.

Then The Duck Of Death should remain well clear of any parts of his war machine which are likely to be targeted. The recent near miss does not indicate that NATO considers him to be a special, inviolate, sovereign bastard.

To protect civilians NATO should bomb attacking forces from either side, then get both sides to negotiate a cease-fire.

How would you bomb the attacking forces, which would soon learn you won't bomb them if they are holed up in civilian-populated areas? Your prescription is a prescription for paralysis and defeat. No one who is anywhere near a position of command would take you seriously.
 
Yes. he appears to suffer from reading comprehension problems associated with extreme leftism.
So does that mean you consider Putin leftwing in the American meaning of the word?

If the objective is to minimize civilian casualties, then shutting down the war machine of old house-to-house-boy is a very good idea. Doing so will require attacking the targets at their actual locations.
Of course the belief that you're minimizing civilian casualties by killing civilians is not supported by any evidence. That's merely a hypothetical.

Then The Duck Of Death should remain well clear of any parts of his war machine which are likely to be targeted.
Like residential homes? Because that's where his grandchildren were killed.

How would you bomb the attacking forces, which would soon learn you won't bomb them if they are holed up in civilian-populated areas? Your prescription is a prescription for paralysis and defeat.
Cities in Libya are seperated by long stretches of desert. When one city is held by Gadaffi's forces and another by the rebels, announce the area in between is off-limits to everyone. Everything that moves in between can be either ordered back to its point of origin, or destroyed. It's quite ironic that you say my prescription is for paralysis, since the conflict is already in stalemate.

And 'minimizing civilian casualties' is such a vague objective, victory or defeat will be impossible to determine.

But as I said before, tribal wars are so messy that it's best to not get involved in the first place.
 
Like residential homes? Because that's where his grandchildren were killed.

Gaddafi's fault. He should have packed his bags for Venezuela.
 
So does that mean you consider Putin leftwing in the American meaning of the word?

No. Russians have their own brand of useless, hypocritical, finger-pointing leftism. I was simply pointing out Putin's apparent inability to read a U.N. resolution with comprehension.

Of course the belief that you're minimizing civilian casualties by killing civilians is not supported by any evidence. That's merely a hypothetical.

I have no belief that killing civilians, in and of itself, serves any such purpose. I do think it is reasonable to expect that the destruction of The Duck's ability to kill civilians and ending The Duck's rule will minimize civilian casualties.

And your arguments are founded on the bare assumption that NATO strikes have killed an unacceptable number of civilians. An unsupported assumption, to put the most charitable face on it.

Like residential homes? Because that's where his grandchildren were killed.

The Duck Of Death rolls the dice and takes his chances. Unfortunately his relatives are always clustered around him. So far, The Duck has been lucky. His relatives, not so much.

None of which means The Duck, master and commander of the forces he has sworn to use in a wanton, wholesale slaughter of anyone and everyone who might at some point become an inconvenience to him, should be exempt from targeting. The Duck himself is the "brain" of the C&C apparatus NATO is seeking to lobotomize.

Cities in Libya are seperated by long stretches of desert. When one city is held by Gadaffi's forces and another by the rebels, announce the area in between is off-limits to everyone. Everything that moves in between can be either ordered back to its point of origin, or destroyed.

How convenient. So, If I were The Duck Of Death and you were NATO, I could paralyze NATO and the rebels by simply digging into every civilian-populated area I control, secure in the knowledge that you will prevent the rebels from coming anywhere near my forces. Of course, I would also be seeking to infiltrate into rebel-held populated areas. Especially with snipers.

Your strategy appears to be tailored to insure continued Duck rule. No doubt the recriminations in your status-quo Libya will be bloody and will take a long time. We will all have to watch The Duck exact his quacking revenge.

It's quite ironic that you say my prescription is for paralysis, since the conflict is already in stalemate.

So why not at least try to do something to break the stalemate, like killing The Duck?

And 'minimizing civilian casualties' is such a vague objective, victory or defeat will be impossible to determine.

Vague in your eyes, perhaps. Impossible for you to determine, perhaps. Others may have far less difficulty making such assessments.

But as I said before, tribal wars are so messy that it's best to not get involved in the first place.

I see. So, if you were NATO, you could be paralyzed into inaction by the simple expedients of holing up in the civilians and being very "messy". Which is pretty much what The Duck Of Death has been doing. The Duck even telegraphed his intended NATO-paralyzing tactics when he screamed "We will get CRAZY!!"

But the old standard hole-up-in-the-civvies-and-get-messy tactics haven't completely paralyzed NATO, because you are not NATO.

At any rate, the entire "best to not get involved in the first place" sidetrack is not anything I was talking about. I simply set out to show and explain what the so-called "no fly" resolution actually says and means. Not to get caught up in all this stickiness.
 
Last edited:
Gaddafi's fault. He should have packed his bags for Venezuela.
The guy who pulls the trigger (or gives the order to do so) is responsible for the kill.

I have no belief that killing civilians, in and of itself, serves any such purpose. I do think it is reasonable to expect that the destruction of The Duck's ability to kill civilians and ending The Duck's rule will minimize civilian casualties.
Of course you're wrong.

You have to count civilian casualties caused by a) NATO attacks, b) NATO-supported rebel attacks and c) Gadaffi's forces' attempts to defend themselves against those attacks.

Weigh that figure against the number of civilians Gadaffi would have killed to suppress the rebellion.

So, If I were The Duck Of Death and you were NATO, I could paralyze NATO and the rebels by simply digging into every civilian-populated area I control, secure in the knowledge that you will prevent the rebels from coming anywhere near my forces.
The stated goal of the UN resolution is "to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack."

A cease-fire with both sides digging in will serve that objective better than the continued civil war there is now.

Others may have far less difficulty making such assessments.
'Mission accomplished', anyone?

It's easy to claim victory. Doesn't mean you accomplished anything worthwile in objective terms.

So, if you were NATO, you could be paralyzed into inaction by the simple expedients of holing up in the civilians and being very "messy".
No, the number of civilian casualties does not determine if a conflict is "messy" in my book.

The conflict in Libya is "messy", because it's fought by a non-transparent collection of tribal and other factions. Which means that NATO even provides air support to people who until recently were fighting the US in Afghanistan.
 
Of course you're wrong.

Of course. How could it be otherwise? After all, I am supporting the UNSC and NATO, and opposing that very special YOU

You have to count civilian casualties caused by a) NATO attacks, b) NATO-supported rebel attacks and c) Gadaffi's forces' attempts to defend themselves against those attacks.

Do I?

Isn't that the UNSC's job? Tell you what. I'll start doing the UNSC's job when they start paying me to do it.

While waiting for the job offer, I've seen no reliable reports of any great number of civilians killed by your listed causes. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said "the truth of the matter is we have trouble coming up with proof of any civilian casualties that we have been responsible for." That statement is a bit dated. We know of a couple of The Duck's relatives who have since been killed by a NATO air strike.

But that strike might well have come within a hair of ending the conflict, and will certainly weigh heavily on The Duck's future contemplations about a cease fire.

Weigh that figure against the number of civilians Gadaffi would have killed to suppress the rebellion.

If I were doing the UNSC's job, Why would I need to count the number that "would have been killed" by The Duck's forces? I could extrapolate a number, but why not simply count the number that The Duck's forces have already killed?

According to the chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court, "There are “reasonable grounds” to charge Col. Moammar Gaddafi’s security forces with having committed war crimes and crimes against humanity during their crackdown on Libyan protesters."

The stated goal of the UN resolution is "to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack."

A cease-fire with both sides digging in will serve that objective better than the continued civil war there is now.

Of course. And while you're at it, you might as well go ahead and declare that peace on earth will serve that objective better still. And you might as well go ahead and fantasize about the second coming of Jesus too.

Because, the more your posts drone on and on, the more obvious it becomes that you've proposed nothing that's likely to result in anything except an endless stalemate with attendant shelling of civilian areas, and/or a victory for The Duck Of Death, followed by a purge, followed by the complete discreditment of the UN and NATO.
 
Because, the more your posts drone on and on, the more obvious it becomes that you've proposed nothing that's likely to result in anything except an endless stalemate with attendant shelling of civilian areas

Which unless you've got some less useless rebels to hand is about the best result that bombing can archive for the foreseeable future.

, and/or a victory for The Duck Of Death, followed by a purge, followed by the complete discreditment of the UN and NATO.

"Duck Of Death" Really? I mean yes I understand that you need properganda to protect you from reality but the best you can come up with for Gaddafi sounds like a really bad computer game villian. Or perhaps you watch too many Westerns.
 
Which unless you've got some less useless rebels to hand is about the best result that bombing can archive for the foreseeable future.

Then what harm could it do to kill the Duck Of Death? If the "foreseeable future" holds nothing but quagmire and death for others, then what makes HIM so special? Why shouldn't the very special Duck share in the cup of his iniquity?

I've looked and looked. I've perused his peacock clothes. I've watched his beady, darting eyes and his yammering lips as he delivered his disjointed tirades. And I can't see anything at all special about him.

"Duck Of Death" Really? I mean yes I understand that you need properganda to protect you from reality but the best you can come up with for Gaddafi sounds like a really bad computer game villian. Or perhaps you watch too many Westerns.

What reality am I protecting myself from? The reality that his name is really Moamar Gaddafi ? (snicker) Hell, that's just as funny to me as Duck Of Death. His first name sounds like a cow vocalization. Second name sounds like Daffy Duck cursing under his breath.

He is very much like a very bad computer game villain. And the mouthy, foppish murderer really does remind me of an African "English Bob". And then there was that "Line Of Death" foolishness just before his previous bomb visitation.

So all in all, I think the Duck Of Death moniker is quite appropos. Sorry you don't like it. Really. Very sorry. If it makes you feel better.
 

Back
Top Bottom