John Stossel: "I Was Brainwashed"

Joey McGee said:
I propose that we set aside a large swath of land for them to colonize from scratch and prove to the world how good their system is. By their account, their new nation will be surpassing ours in no time. We'll all promise to join once they prove it works.
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If the United States had been forced to "start from scratch" to prove how much better democracy was than monarchy, where do you think the U.S. would be today?
A neat thing about an-cap is that the "cap" side is already pretty well developed, and as I mentioned earlier, it may very well be possible to gradually remove mechanisms of government coercion without first dismantling our society or starting over at all. Acknowledgement that government coercion is immoral, and a willingness to limit the powers of government accordingly, is all that is really needed.
 
I really enjoyed this debate because FMOTL theory was pretty new to me. I'd seen a little about those "Sovereign Citizens" on the news once briefly but that was it.

With birthers on the way out it's nice to find a new sub-set of whacko.

The problems are incredibly easy to point out in the whole thing. And as I did a bit of research yesterday one issue kept popping up. It seems that every FMOTL person wants to use their "beliefs" to get out of paying a debt or a criminal charge against them.

A movement poplulated by a few fringe deadbeats is hardly anything to worry about. Secession is a looooong way off. Pay your bills. Don't violate the rights of others or their property. Don't get sucked in by any of these hucksters telling you that you don't have to pay taxes.

ALSO: Yes you have a first and last name. It is not a creation of the state to trade debt based on your future labor. It's just so everyone knows who the F you are. If you're listening to anyone who tells you that you need to sue yourself to become independent from yourself RUN OUT OF THE DAMN TRAILER!
 
PGH said:
I really enjoyed this debate because FMOTL theory was pretty new to me. I'd seen a little about those "Sovereign Citizens" on the news once briefly but that was it.

With birthers on the way out it's nice to find a new sub-set of whacko.

The problems are incredibly easy to point out in the whole thing. And as I did a bit of research yesterday one issue kept popping up. It seems that every FMOTL person wants to use their "beliefs" to get out of paying a debt or a criminal charge against them.

A movement poplulated by a few fringe deadbeats is hardly anything to worry about. Secession is a looooong way off. Pay your bills. Don't violate the rights of others or their property. Don't get sucked in by any of these hucksters telling you that you don't have to pay taxes.

ALSO: Yes you have a first and last name. It is not a creation of the state to trade debt based on your future labor. It's just so everyone knows who the F you are. If you're listening to anyone who tells you that you need to sue yourself to become independent from yourself RUN OUT OF THE DAMN TRAILER!
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You'll hear States talking seriously about secession within a few years.

As the currency system implodes, States will seek to rid themselves of the financial and regulatory burdens of their master States.
 
AvalonXQ said:
If the United States had been forced to "start from scratch" to prove how much better democracy was than monarchy, where do you think the U.S. would be today?
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I propose that they get to start their own nation with their current money and borrow and trade with other nations. Literally "just go do it", they seem rearing to go and I wasn't too shocked the idea has already been flown!

A neat thing about an-cap is that the "cap" side is already pretty well developed, and as I mentioned earlier, it may very well be possible to gradually remove mechanisms of government coercion without first dismantling our society or starting over at all. Acknowledgement that government coercion is immoral, and a willingness to limit the powers of government accordingly, is all that is really needed.
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I hear where you're coming from, but I'm not really a huge fan of philosophy. This whole "government coercion is immoral" business seems fishy to me. I think the drug laws are immoral but I'm happy to throw some people off their land to build a highway. It's really a tough sell. It depends on the situation. We live in a natural world, our actions should try and deal with that reality, making up philosophies to guide our progress seems old hat. Evidence-based policy? Reason? Naturalism? Sorry that's my crackpot political paradigm that will ultimately please no one :p Or is it the ultimate system?
 
Joey McGee said:
I think the drug laws are immoral but I'm happy to throw some people off their land to build a highway. It's really a tough sell.
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Indeed, taking away the cookie jar is always a tough sell.

I have to question why you think throwing people off of their land is somehow moral. The people building the road could simply go around, go over, go under, or pay a premium to construct the road they wish to construct.

Using violence to take property is immoral in all cases. No road is worth hurting someone over. People should not have to fear violence against their person simply because they hold property that someone else wants.
 
michaelsuede said:
Indeed, taking away the cookie jar is always a tough sell.

I have to question why you think throwing people off of their land is somehow moral. The people building the road could simply go around, go over, go under, or pay a premium to construct the road they wish to construct.

Using violence to take property is immoral in all cases. No road is worth hurting someone over. People should not have to fear violence against their person simply because they hold property that someone else wants.
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Didn't the US secessionists use violence to take the land they were living on from the British?
 
michaelsuede said:
You'll hear States talking seriously about secession within a few years.

As the currency system implodes, States will seek to rid themselves of the financial and regulatory burdens of their master States.
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I'm sure that I will. In the same way I'm sure when the fundies tell me Jesus is coming within a few years.

Everyone likes to think that they're the one who knows how it's all going to go down. You don't. No one does.

What I don't think is going to happen is that anyone is going to run for political office on the platform of shutting down the government. I also don't think that a revolution of a few deadbeat tax evaders is a big threat to the United States Military.
 
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michaelsuede said:
Indeed, taking away the cookie jar is always a tough sell.

I have to question why you think throwing people off of their land is somehow moral. The people building the road could simply go around, go over, go under, or pay a premium to construct the road they wish to construct.

Using violence to take property is immoral in all cases. No road is worth hurting someone over. People should not have to fear violence against their person simply because they hold property that someone else wants.
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Eeeeeeeeeeeee fun.

I don't think throwing people off their land to build a highway that will sustain hundreds of thousands of other people is "moral", it kind of blows. But I'd still do it. I'd try and get the people some nicer land, near a beach or something.

This has happened quite a bit in American History. Can you imagine what the roads would look like and how crippled we would be if we tried to accommodate people like you say? Hilarious. It's just not feasible.

The thing you ultraidealistic individualists don't get about the human race is that we aren't even really individuals technically or biologically. We don't exist in our own little bubble. We are actually a loosely knit larger being of sorts. We fight each other the same way our selfish genes compete and somehow we balance altruism with this natural state of affairs.

Your ideological fantasy goes against reality and that's why you can't get anyone to get on board with it. People sense that we need to balance our interdependence and independence. Holding up liberty as your core philosophy can be radically naive and juvenile.

Ideally we could build flying cars or tunnels or magical trains. I'm working on that right now actually.
 
Joey McGee said:
Eeeeeeeeeeeee fun.

I don't think throwing people off their land to build a highway that will sustain hundreds of thousands of other people is "moral", it kind of blows. But I'd still do it. I'd try and get the people some nicer land, near a beach or something.

This has happened quite a bit in American History. Can you imagine what the roads would look like and how crippled we would be if we tried to accommodate people like you say? Hilarious. It's just not feasible.

The thing you ultraidealistic individualists don't get about the human race is that we aren't even really individuals technically or biologically. We don't exist in our own little bubble. We are actually a loosely knit larger being of sorts. We fight each other the same way our selfish genes compete and somehow we balance altruism with this natural state of affairs.

Your ideological fantasy goes against reality and that's why you can't get anyone to get on board with it. People sense that we need to balance our interdependence and independence. Holding up liberty as your core philosophy can be radically naive and juvenile.

Ideally we could build flying cars or tunnels or magical trains. I'm working on that right now actually.
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Reality states it is immoral to use violence against an innocent person simply because you want something they have.

Fantasy would be believing that destroying property rights through violent expropriation can somehow result in greater prosperity and peace.
 
michaelsuede said:
Reality states it is immoral to use violence against an innocent person simply because you want something they have.

Fantasy would be believing that destroying property rights through violent expropriation can somehow result in greater prosperity and peace.
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You're right.


OK EVERYONE WE'RE SHUTTING IT DOWN!! Every accomplishment of democracy for the last few centuries is meaningless! Someone was paid to relocate their home! Oh the horror!! Will our evil never cease??

I guess we should start by dismantling the international space station...
 
michaelsuede said:
Reality ...
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Reality says that if you try to secede from the United States, you will get attacked.

Reality is dying for your beliefs, not fancy words on an internet forum.

The idea that you would try to redefine reality for the rest of us is laughable.
 
michaelsuede said:
Drug dealers are only a problem because drugs are illegal. Without a State, drugs would be legalized, hence no drug dealer problem. But that aside, you could sue your neighbor if he was engaging in any activity that harmed your property's value.
However, generally speaking depending on the incident, people have a right to homestead behaviors. For example, if you move in next to a hog farm, you would not be able to legitimately sue him for the smell. However, if a hog farmer moved in across from you, you would have a right to sue him for the smell.



The private system of justice that you are suing him under.

The State is not necessary to have law and order. The State is the exact opposite of law and order because it is predicated on the use of coercion to fund itself.
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So, I have $10K in the bank, the corporation I'm suing (because they're contaminating my groundwater and causing air pollution) has an annual legal budget of $10 million. Just how do you think that is going to work out in court? No justice but for those who can afford it is exactly how libertarians would have it, I'm guessing.
 
PGH said:
You're right.


OK EVERYONE WE'RE SHUTTING IT DOWN!! Every accomplishment of democracy for the last few centuries is meaningless! Someone was paid to relocate their home! Oh the horror!! Will our evil never cease??

I guess we should start by dismantling the international space station...
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Speaking of space.

Private companies were able to get a man into space for a micro-fraction of the cost NASA spends.

In a free market society, eventually man would conquer space. And he would do so at a much cheaper cost and for better reasons.
 
ideogram said:
Reality says that if you try to secede from the United States, you will get attacked.

Reality is dying for your beliefs, not fancy words on an internet forum.

The idea that you would try to redefine reality for the rest of us is laughable.
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I take it you would be first in line to shoot your neighbor for not paying his taxes.
 
michaelsuede said:
Speaking of space.

Private companies were able to get a man into space for a micro-fraction of the cost NASA spends.

In a free market society, eventually man would conquer space. And he would do so at a much cheaper cost and for better reasons.
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Evidence?
 
michaelsuede said:
I take it you would be first in line to shoot your neighbor for not paying his taxes.
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If you could name the last person shot in the U.S. for not paying his taxes that would be great. What with all the violent coercive force they're using....
 
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