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Merged Discussion of femr's video data analysis

It doesn't matter what the freefall speeds, times, etc are. It doesn't matter if they concentrate on one location of the building. The fact of the matter doesn't change one iota. Fire took down that building.

This is why this whole thread frightens and confuses me. Although I find much of it interesting, NOTHING that femr2 has said changes the fact that fire took down the building. IMHO, this thread is better suited for a physics or engineering sub forum instead of a conspiracy sub forum.
 
You list your options, but they're not the only ones on the table.
Sure. I didn't say the list was exhaustive, hence the etc...

As we've noted previously NIST did NOT use the NW corner to plot their data, so partially (or even mostly) for this reason the velocity curves are different.
Their choice of location and methodology is significant problem for their data...
a) They misinterpreted initial motion as vertical rather than north-south (as they did not take account of the initial twisting motion visible from the Cam#3 viewpoint).
b) They did not perform perspective correction.
c) They did not perform static point extraction (the removal of camera movement from trace data. Even though the view may look static, it is not.)
d) They did not track a feature at all, but a horizontal position. As the building did not descent completely vertically, but included some east-west movement, their data is actually of a wandering horizontal point, not a feature on the facade.
e) In order to obtain a trace from their initial point to their stated final point they had to *splice* together two traces from completely different horizontal positions, which without taking account of the perspective and distance shearing effects makes the data further skewed.
f) They did not treat the base video data correctly, using an interlaced copy of the video (the actual copy they used is available within the recent FOIA releases. I have the original)
g) They did not perform a per-frame trace, but instead skipped frames, reducing the sampling rate considerably and reducing available data redundancy for the purposes of noise reduction and derivation of velocity and acceleration profile data.
h) They applied their interpretation to the entire north face.
i) It is highly probable they used a manual process to record the trace data, rather than the sub-pixel accurate automated feature tracing methods I employ.

These are some of the reasons their data is shoddy and their method sloppy.

Some have contended that NIST's measurements are not valid since they wall deformed, but nobody has shown to what extent it did, and how that would affect the NIST measurements - ie nobody has quantified it in an accurate way.
We have extracted a fair bit of detail on early building motion over at the911forum.

So it's rather premature, IMO, to treat the NIST measurements with the degree of contempt that Femr2 does.
I do not agree. See above. I perhaps word my distaste more emotively than necessary when folk try to reject my data in favour of theirs with absolutely no technical reasoning other than I am branded a *twoofer*.

So far his reactions are surprisingly crude, compared to the sophistication of his measurements.
My conclusions are simple. It's not rocket science.

if one doesn't focus on attacking NIST and making grandiose claims
What *grandiose claims* ? Remember the reason this topic resurfaced...discussion for cmatrix. He uses NISTSs words to support his position. It is not possible to change that position without highlighting the incorrect assertions made by NIST (which you call attacking NIST. Emotive.)

Back to the original NIST measurements of approx. 5.4s for the 18 stories to fall out of sight - I've done several measurements on multiple videos which essentially find the same thing, give or take a few frames.
Then we should discuss determination of T0 and initial motion direction, as that is where NIST went astray.

So I side with NIST on the original '40% longer than freefall would have produced' opinion, for that reason alone.
See above.

I don't agree with Femr2 that NIST are inaccurate or incompetent or whatever other pejorative adjectives were used.
See above.
 
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This is why this whole thread frightens and confuses me. Although I find much of it interesting, NOTHING that femr2 has said changes the fact that fire took down the building. IMHO, this thread is better suited for a physics or engineering sub forum instead of a conspiracy sub forum.
I agree, it's utterly, utterly pointless. Even femr2 has admitted it's pointless, because he intends to do nothing with his findings, he won't admit whether his findings lead him into the demolition camp, although his dishonesty in this regard shows us exactly where his position lies and his findings don't change the big picture. His exercise seems to be one designed purely to stroke his own ego and debunkers slavishly play along.

The only reason the thread continues is because debunkers just can't help arguing. Stellaphane had the analysis spot on. "Paralysis by analysis" is a phrase I coined at work when I had a manager who wanted to know every single statistical detail. It wasn't until I pointed out that no real work would get done if I spent all my time looking at statistical minutia, did he finally get it. Same thing is happening here.

Just let femr2 post pretty gifs and wiggly lines and allow him to quietly talk to himself.
 
Noting all the recent posts I agree completely that this hyper over-analysis of minute building motion is irrelevant to determining the cause of the collapse; and the cause of the collapse is the only part relevant to any claims of conspiracy, after all.

So it is doubly irrelevant, in that sense. (noted by twinstead)

But let us not forget that it serves the useful purpose of focusing on NIST, finding flaws with the NIST reports, and providing an opportunity to denigrate NIST with every breath: even, as Ozeco notes, inspiring Femr2 to compare NIST's work with animal excretions.

And I humbly submit that the relentless need to attack the 'official story™' and NIST is really the main motivation behind the inquiry. The related grandiose claims are attention-seeking tactics from anti-establishment conspiracy theorists, nothing more. I refer specifically to the likes of Richard Gage, James Fetzer, Judy Wood, David Chandler, Steven Jones, Niels Harrit and Tony Szamboti and to countless anonymous (and mostly ignored) pundits such as cmatrix, major_tom and Femr2 (whose claims are not nearly as grandiose as those of the others mentioned).
 
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utterly pointless
Then don't spend your time writing posts with no purpose (other than to try and influence other posters into ignoring the thread content because you can't see the purpose, regardless of how many times it is stated.)

Even femr2 has admitted it's pointless
Absolute nonsense. Quote please, or retraction.

because he intends to do nothing with his findings
Nonsense. I'm doing all sorts.

his dishonesty in this regard shows us exactly where his position lies
Absolute nonsense. No dishonesty from me. Lots of fabricated statements from you at the moment.

His exercise seems to be one designed purely to stroke his own ego and debunkers slavishly play along.
You are clearly not reading the content or seeing the focus.

The only reason the thread continues is because debunkers just can't help arguing.
Debunkers can't help arguing, true, but the reason the subject is being discussed right now has been made repeatedly clear. Hint: cmatrix.

A problem is the seeming inability for many posters here to retain any information or flow of discussion that is more than a post or two back in time, so they go over the same thing time and again, and learn nothing. There's some irony in there somewhere methinks :)

Stellaphane had the analysis spot on.
Too funny. You might want to read my quote from Stellophane a little earlier in the thread, and ask yourself why it's a source of mirth for me.

Just let femr2 post pretty gifs and wiggly lines and allow him to quietly talk to himself.
Just let others do as they please, which I am sure they will :) x
 
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Noting all the recent posts
Noting you have completely ignored my responses to you. I shall assume you accept the validity of my responses in full. If you disagree, by all means do so, but include relevant technical detail. No hand-waving in this thread please ;)

I agree completely that this hyper over-analysis of minute building motion is irrelevant to determining the cause of the collapse
The motion studies have revealed a great deal of information about the behaviour of the buildings both in advance of and during descent. Some details support/affirm/confirm elements within reports such as those from NIST, some refute/reject/debunk elements within reports such as those from NIST.

Far from irrelevant, regardless of which *camp* you align yourself with. Complaining that the details are too technical, then pointing folk to the NIST report is highly hypocritical. Pointing out that *twoofers* are wrong because they are not looking at technical details in the NIST reports, and then rejecting technical information because it is not about super-nano-nuke-waves is hypocritical.

You don't have to participate in the discussion. If you can't see the point, don't bother. It's been explained over and over again. If you're not there yet, I doubt you ever will be.

And I humbly submit that the relentless need to attack the 'official story™' and NIST is really the main motivation behind the inquiry.
Incorrect.

The related grandiose claims
What claims of mine are you referring to ?
 
Noting you have completely ignored my responses to you. I shall assume you accept the validity of my responses in full. If you disagree, by all means do so, but include relevant technical detail. No hand-waving in this thread please ;)

Sorry, you're wrong. I've not ignored them at all. In fact I have referred to them a number of times, even while I am not interested in a further point-by-point rehash of the minutia. Didn't I make that crystal clear?


The motion studies have revealed a great deal of information about the behaviour of the buildings both in advance of and during descent. Some details support/affirm/confirm elements within reports such as those from NIST, some refute/reject/debunk elements within reports such as those from NIST.

Most of us agree that these minutia are irrelevant to determining the CAUSE of collapse, which is progressive collapse instigated by fire. Most of us have no problem understanding such.

There's nothing hypocritical in pointing out that your measurements differ from both NIST's and Chandlers, but that in none of these cases is the difference meaningful in terms of understanding whether fires caused the collapse or not.

That's what is going on here, but you don't seem capable of understanding that part of the discourse. You disagree with NIST's T=0.... I don't.
You claim that there was no 2.25s of freefall, and you've made your objections clear. Yet you don't really know exactly how NIST did their work, you're still speculating. Without writing to them for clarification, it can't really progress much further. I've suggested, as have several others, that you pursue the matter in a professional journal - I doubt you will, which is a shame.

Nonetheless, it doesn't make any difference to the rational and scientific conclusion that fire caused WTC 7 to collapse.


What claims of mine are you referring to ?

I wasn't. I was careful to explain that this is not all about you. That's why I bolded the sentence which related to you.
 
femr2:
Has Chandler responded to your work? (sorry, if I missed it).
Not really. He's aware. We had some discussion during the hunt for jolts (found), but he was quite dismissive and didn't respond to any technical criticism, nor accept any additonal data from me or advice on how to improve his results.
 
Sorry, you're wrong.
About what ?

I've not ignored them at all.
Then you agree with the following list then ?...

a) They misinterpreted initial motion as vertical rather than north-south (as they did not take account of the initial twisting motion visible from the Cam#3 viewpoint).
b) They did not perform perspective correction.
c) They did not perform static point extraction (the removal of camera movement from trace data. Even though the view may look static, it is not.)
d) They did not track a feature at all, but a horizontal position. As the building did not descent completely vertically, but included some east-west movement, their data is actually of a wandering horizontal point, not a feature on the facade.
e) In order to obtain a trace from their initial point to their stated final point they had to *splice* together two traces from completely different horizontal positions, which without taking account of the perspective and distance shearing effects makes the data further skewed.
f) They did not treat the base video data correctly, using an interlaced copy of the video (the actual copy they used is available within the recent FOIA releases. I have the original)
g) They did not perform a per-frame trace, but instead skipped frames, reducing the sampling rate considerably and reducing available data redundancy for the purposes of noise reduction and derivation of velocity and acceleration profile data.
h) They applied their interpretation to the entire north face.
i) It is highly probable they used a manual process to record the trace data, rather than the sub-pixel accurate automated feature tracing methods I employ.

These are some of the reasons their data is shoddy and their method sloppy.


I am not interested in a further point-by-point rehash of the minutia.
You cannot make statements such as...
As we've noted previously NIST did NOT use the NW corner to plot their data, so partially (or even mostly) for this reason the velocity curves are different.
...and then ignore my italicised response above imo.

Didn't I make that crystal clear?
Irrelevant. A response was provided.

Most of us agree that these minutia are irrelevant to determining the CAUSE of collapse
Sounds like you are aligning yourself with statments such as...
I'm afraid that talking about "core failure beneath the East penthouse of WTC7 propogating upwards and followed by descent of such through the building" is precisely the kind of focusing on minutia that was the whole point of my post -- so much so, in fact, it's almost hard to believe you didn't do it intentionally for some reason. Why should anyone give two seconds of thought to such a tiny bit of nothingness
Please clarify your position on such statements.

you don't seem capable of understanding that part of the discourse.
Incorrect. You don't seem capable of understanding why the recent discussion is taking place, even though it has been stated a number of times. Hint: cmatrix.

You disagree with NIST's T=0.... I don't.
You should. It's inaccurate. I imagine you have fallen foul of the same error in interpretation of movement that NIST did...which is mistaking early motion from the NIST Cam#3 viewpoint as being vertical, when it is in fact primarily north-south. Cross-referencing with the Dan Rather viewpoint confirms my viewpoint (pun intended).

You claim that there was no 2.25s of freefall, and you've made your objections clear.
Are you agreeing with my *objections* (as you put it) ?

I'm not claiming that at all by the way. I'm stating there was no 2.25s of freefall.

I'd even go so far as to say there was <0.1s of *freefall* of any individual section of the roofline.

If you have a problem with such statements, get the data out (mine, or yours).

Yet you don't really know exactly how NIST did their work, you're still speculating.
I have listed a number of issues with their method. There are unknowns, sure. What of my list of *objections* above do you disagree with ? I'm quite happy to either explain again or refer you to earlier sections within this thread. Inability to refute my *objections* will be taken as agreement with them at this point in time in our dialogue.

Without writing to them for clarification, it can't really progress much further.
I don't need any clarification from NIST. I know more than enough about how they performed their late add-in *study* already thanks. Here...
563913536.png


Progress ? What on earth are you talking about ? I've generated new (and better) data-sets, clarifying the actual behaviour.

I've suggested, as have several others, that you pursue the matter in a professional journal
And I've repeatedly stated I have little interest in doing so, so WHY BOTHER asking me AGAIN ? :rolleyes:

I wasn't. I was careful to explain that this is not all about you. That's why I bolded the sentence which related to you.
You said "Femr2 (whose claims are not nearly as grandiose as those of the others mentioned)".

What claims are you referring to ?
 
Not really. He's aware. We had some discussion during the hunt for jolts (found), but he was quite dismissive and didn't respond to any technical criticism, nor accept any additonal data from me or advice on how to improve his results.
Have you ever entertained the idea of taking your work to an engineering forum (non-conspiracy)? Wouldn't that be the next logical step (for refinement)?
 
Have you ever entertained the idea of taking your work to an engineering forum (non-conspiracy)? Wouldn't that be the next logical step (for refinement)?
It's been dissected and pored over in detail at the 911forum, including independant data-set replication by achimspok, blind tracing procedure tests, ...

The base process is pretty simple...the automated aquisition of feature movement trace data. I use SynthEyes, which does a very fine job of it. Other elements such as static point extraction and perspective correction are pretty simple processes within excel or similar.

I don't think there's much point refining the data further. The resultant velocity and acceleration profiles are fully adequate.

There are limits to the data precision obtainable from the available video sources. I'm very confident those limits have already been reached.

I'm not overly interested in starting all these discussions again in another environment. I have no concerns about video data handling, tracing method, data manipulation or noise treatment. Noise treatment could be improved I'm sure, but as I said earlier, it wouldn't significantly change the trend/shape of the resultant profiles (perhaps provide some additional detail in the same way that, because the noise level in the Sauret data was lower, we were able to detect a number of *mini-jolts*). The limitation arises from the video data quality, not the resulting data extraction and manipulation.
 
It's been dissected and pored over in detail at the 911forum, including independant data-set replication by achimspok, blind tracing procedure tests, ...

The base process is pretty simple...the automated aquisition of feature movement trace data. I use SynthEyes, which does a very fine job of it. Other elements such as static point extraction and perspective correction are pretty simple processes within excel or similar.

I don't think there's much point refining the data further. The resultant velocity and acceleration profiles are fully adequate.

There are limits to the data precision obtainable from the available video sources. I'm very confident those limits have already been reached.

I'm not overly interested in starting all these discussions again in another environment. I have no concerns about video data handling, tracing method, data manipulation or noise treatment. Noise treatment could be improved I'm sure, but as I said earlier, it wouldn't significantly change the trend/shape of the resultant profiles (perhaps provide some additional detail in the same way that, because the noise level in the Sauret data was lower, we were able to detect a number of *mini-jolts*). The limitation arises from the video data quality, not the resulting data extraction and manipulation.
So begging the question, What's next? Where do you want to go with this (if it's only a hobby you enjoy, that's good too)?
 
Femr2, I'm not interested in getting drawn back into a point-by-point debate.

I have work to do for one thing. But as I've already explained none of this discussion touches the fact that the collapse was demonstrably instigated by fire. That's the main reason for not getting further bogged down in such detail, while missing the big picture.

Perhaps I'll respond in more detail later, but perhaps not.
 

*objections*

*freefall*


You seem to have a fondness for using asterisks around words that you think don't really fit the actual description of what they were used to describe?

Is this some sort of *game* that you play in order to keep people *guessing* as to what your *conclusion* is supposed to be based on the *evidence* you have provided?

I still have no idea as to what your findings are supposed to lead to?

Are you spending all your time analyzing all the videos and other information just to come to the table to proclaim NIST (or whomever) was sloppy, but still correct? Or is there some other hidden reason you holding close to your breast, waiting to reveal to the masses when the time is right?

Please enlighten me.
 
You seem to have a fondness for using asterisks around words that you think don't really fit the actual description of what they were used to describe?
No, I use them where appropriate, mostly for emphasis...

*splice* - In order to obtain a full height trace from their stated initial position NIST must have joined together to separate traces from two separate horizontal locations. I starred *splice* to denote that action.

*objections* - AlienEntity referred to my statements as objections. In my opinion the word is not appropriate which is why I added "as you put it" immediately afterwards.

*freefall* - The more appropriate term is gravitational acceleration, so where NIST have used the term freefall, I star it.

*study* - The bolt-in section could be referred to as an additional study, but it's a grey term in context.

etc.

Is this some sort of *game* that you play in order to keep people *guessing* as to what your *conclusion* is supposed to be based on the *evidence* you have provided?
I don't play games.
 
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Femr2, I'm not interested in getting drawn back into a point-by-point debate.
It seems you do not want to debate at all, but instead throw out misplaced assertions (at best) and then ignore or hand-wave away the detailed responses you receive, perhaps so that you can throw out the same misplaced assertions (at best) again in the future.

I will therefore assume you have no issue with the list of issues the NIST trace data suffers from.

If you respond again without stating which you have issue with in detail, I am likely to ask you again. Thread focus, an'all'tha'.
 
No, I use them where appropriate, mostly for emphasis...

*splice* - In order to obtain a full height trace from their stated initial position NIST must have joined together to separate traces from two separate horizontal locations. I starred *splice* to denote that action.

*objections* - AlienEntity referred to my statements as objections. In my opinion the word is not appropriate which is why I added "as you put it" immediately afterwards.

*freefall* - The more appropriate term is gravitational acceleration, so where NIST have used the term freefall, I star it.

*study* - The bolt-in section could be referred to as an additional study, but it's a grey term in context.

etc.


I don't play games.

So what's the reason you have done all this research?

Was it to just to show everyone that NIST was sloppy and that you agree that fire caused the collapse of WTC7?
 
It seems you do not want to debate at all.................


The problem here is there really is nothing to debate. NIST did an analysis of the "free-fall" to the precision they felt was sufficient to answer a concern presented during the comments stage of their report. You don't feel this was sufficient but refuse to present these concerns to NIST so they can address them. You have your opinion and they have theirs (that it's good enough).

Was it "good enough"? Yes. They were tasked to determine the probable cause of the collapse. This event (in their view) is not important to their task (so outside the scope). Unless you can show how this is somehow important to the scope of the report the whole "free-fall" point is moot.

So what are we debating again? Does NIST consider it important? No (as evident that it was not explained in the "draft" report).
 
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..... including independant data-set replication by achimspok, ...

achimspok ?

The guy who found it difficult to edit a straight line onto a .jpg in order to get the GZ wind direction correct? The guy who (evidently) thought Vesey St lined up E-W? The guy who thought the base of the Verizon building extended up to the top? The guy who thought wind vortices explained the smoke emanating from WTC7? The guy who didn't understand that you can't draw a line from the smoke source and its destination miles downwind and take that as the instantaneous wind direction at the source ???

You really should pick your associates more carefully.
 
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