Split Thread [Ed] Personal experiences with gays

[Quad4_72]

'I can always tell when someone is wearing a toupee', and of course, you can when the toupee is obvious.

More recently it has become 'I can always tell when someone has false breasts', and of course, Quad is saying 'I can always tell when someone is gay because they are effeminate'.

Well since you brought up the fake breasts subject, I am indeed 100% at spotting those, if that in some way transfers over to spotting gays as well

 

[Belz...]

So are you saying Ian McKellen is not gay?

Amazing how he's avoiding those direct questions.

 

[Quad4_72]

For me it is not your experiences but your reasoning and conclusions that are coming under scrutiny.

I think The Don summed it up:

"

Don't you see that because of how you go about identifying people as gay it is confirmation bias? You've set up a section criteria that means generally you will only identify people that match your stereotype as gay, so if a man is not camp then you will not consider that he is gay even though he could be?

I completely understand your point about the confirmation bias. But the point is, knowing hundreds of my friends that are men personal lives, not one of them has been masculine and gay as well. And not to mention, of the few men that I DO know personally who are indeed gay, they act extremely feminine or camp or whatever you want to call it.

 

[Rasmus]

I do believe their accounts. They just simply have not been in any way similar to the accounts that I have had. Now let me ask you this, why is it that it is only possible for me to be the one who does not realize what is going on around him? Is it not possible that individuals in this forum have had personal accounts that are actually no where near what the real world is like, and are skewed into making them believe that there are an excessive amount of masculine gays in society?

Nobody here is arguing for an "excessive" amount. We're arguing "more than you think there are". The vast majority of soldiers will be heterosexual.

But the people in the forum are from the real world. Their accounts differ from yours in that we judge whether someone is gay differently from you:

We are told.
We know gay people that introduce us to other gay people.
Some here will meet people in situations where it is very safe for them to come out as gay.

The majority of people we meet is still straight. But we've got a fairly decent idea of how many gay people there are.

I know you would love for me to draw different conclusions that coincide exactly with what you have experienced, but that's just not the way life works.

No, I know. But my point was mainly that I am not denying that you've seen what you are claiming to have seen.

I think this went over my head. I'm not sure what you are saying here.

I am saying that you don't *know* if the people around you are gay or straight. You are only guessing based on what you see and you could be wrong - mainly in your assessment, possibly even in what you remember (in the sense that you might assume individuals have done certain things hen in reality they have not - e.g. hit on a woman.)

-> How many of these people have you seen kissing their partners? Drastically more than 95%?

I do believe that others thoughts may be true. It seems to me that everyone in this thread believes that my thoughts and experiences are the ones that are untrue. People keep insisting that SOME of the men I met in my sample just HAD to be gay. They can't grasp the fact that possibly I have never known personally a gay masculine man.

If only 5% of men are homosexual then you could be expected to have met a good handful of gay men. Yet from the hundreds of people you claim you've known personally, there's only the one, where there should be 10 or 20.

Does that not strike you as extremely unlikely?

Perhaps I have indeed lived under exceptional circumstances. I find it unlikely though, seeing as how I have lived in so many different places and so many different parts of the country. Is it possible that the posters on this forum are just more in touch with gay communities and that is how their view of society has become skewed?

As far the prevalence of homosexuality is concerned: Maybe.

But it gives them a much better idea of what gay people are like. And if they say that the majority of gays is not the obviously camp, effeminate, limp-wirsted fairy type of gay, then I think that information is way more reliable than yours.

I respect your opinion.

You should. I was saying positive things about you and the worst I could come up with was that you're mistaken.

 

[DC]

I completely understand your point about the confirmation bias. But the point is, knowing hundreds of my friends that are men personal lives, not one of them has been masculine and gay as well. And not to mention, of the few men that I DO know personally who are indeed gay, they act extremely feminine or camp or whatever you want to call it.

i think you have just a lousy sample composition and now you are confused that your personal impression does not really fit to reality in a bigger picture.

 

[TragicMonkey]

But what about the other sample in which I know personally hundreds of men who act masculine and are straight, with not a single one of them being gay?

Are you serious? This is a basic failure of logic here. Most Italians are Catholic. Does that mean most Catholics are Italian? You can't tell anything at all about the masculinity of gay people if your sample is masculine straight people.

 

[BadBoy]

Maybe, but not this part of Europe, thank you all the same!

Quite right. We're more manly than the American manly men. More hair and bigger balls. We dont even dare talk to each other in toilets, incase some thinks your after their bottom.

 

[Quad4_72]

So tell me why any of these people would outright tell you that they were gay.

And, as above, can you really - for each of them - detail the instances of their behavior that makes you so sure they are straight?

Short of being told, how can you tell if someone is gay or straight? Why would you assume this method is so reliable?

What is it that should make a gay person think it would be okay and safe to let you know that they are gay?

Again with going in circles, as I said before I could tell they were straight because of their interest in women, whether it was marriage, engagement, girlfriend, dating women, etc. And if they were indeed using that to put on a front, then no they would not likely tell me or otherwise they would not be putting on that front.

 

[Quad4_72]

And why do you have it?

My wife and I use it. The soldier in question was not married, had no girlfriend, and did not go on dates with women.

Why is it relevant that the tube was open? (Seriously: If it was left open after sex then there is no telling how long ago that was.)

From what I am told, it looked like it was recently used.

Oh: I have slept on floors that were so dirty that you couldn't even see the actual floor without putting a good bit of work in.

ETA: He might very well be gay. But you cannot know this based on what you saw and/or found out.

You are exactly correct. And that is exactly why I said he is the only one of my soldiers that MIGHT be gay.

 

[zooterkin]

Direct me to a post that indicates I think only gays have anal sex. If you are referring to what I think the KYjelly on my soldiers nightstand was used for, it was only assumed he used it for homosexual anal sex because he had another male soldier still asleep in his bed early in the morning.

Was the one in the bed acting in a masculine fashion?

 

[Quad4_72]

It looks like he is ignoring me.

I am pretty sure I responded to your posts. Which ones did I miss? Keep in mind, I am trying to keep up with quite a few posters.

 

[Quad4_72]

Until DADT's repeal comes into effect, what would you do?

I would have no choice but to act accordingly with the current policy. Nothing personal.

 

[Quad4_72]

Being a bigot isn't only about your public demeanor and reaction to people, it is also about the mechanisms and stereotypes you employ to make judgements concerning them.

In the bad old days when racism towards blacks was socially acceptable in this country there were plenty of white people who treated them with dignity, respect, and compassion, but their personal beliefs were no less bigoted for that public display.

Read the writings of some of the foremost advocates of both the abolition of slavery and of equal rights for blacks. Their goals were admirable, but their beliefs were clearly bigoted.

Bigotry isn't limited to overt hostility, even though the latter is often inspired by the former. It is also a part of how someone perceives and evaluates others.




The "gay community" isn't some sort of isolated commune, it is simply a subset of the larger society. This means that someone who was familiar with such subsets, where the members are less reticent about their beliefs and behaviors, is going to have a greater understanding of the characteristics of that group than someone who is not.

Take your sentence and substitute "Baptist", or White Supremacist, or "football fan", or "gardener" for "gay" and see if it still sounds as meaningful to you.



I'm glad you brought that up, since I had set aside your response to him on that same point for a comment of my own when I caught up with the end of the thread. Now I won't wait.

Your response to TM,



Since you have clearly stated that your own experience with gays is limited largely to having worked in a bar whose clientele included a lot of en femme gays, and this is much of what you base your own position on it is hard for me to understand how you can find fault with TM for basing his own conclusions on a much larger and less focused sample.

TMs sample seems to be just as focused as mine. From his description, it sounds like the majority of his interactions are with gays. Since the majority of the population is not gay, that would make his view of general society skewed.

 

[Quad4_72]

I love that you think your experience trumps that of the many actual gay and bi people who have told you that you're wrong in this thread. It's truly priceless.

And I contend that most likely someone who is gay or bi is going to naturally seek out and have more contact with people who are gay or bi. This would in essence skew their view of society, leading them to believe that "Oh there are tons of gay people! There are almost as many as straight people!" When this simply is not the case.

 

[Alan]

Please direct me to a single post that indicates I would act negatively towards a gay soldier if he came out of the closet.

I would have no choice but to act accordingly with the current policy. Nothing personal.

There's one right there.

 

[Quad4_72]

Quad - which of these do you think is the reason for the discrepancy between your experiences and the others on this thread?

1. The vast majority of gay men are effeminate, the others in this thread have been exposed to unusual populations where there are significant numbers of "straight-acting" gay men.
2. There are plenty of straight-acting gay men around, but you happen to have met an unusual sample which contains none.
3. There are plenty of straight-acting gay men in your environment, but for some reason or another you haven't identified them as such.

I am gonna go with option 1.

 

[Emet]

I am gonna go with option 1.

Do you not meet people casually in businesses or offices? Do you think you know the sexual preference of these folks?

 

[Quad4_72]

Amazing how he's avoiding those direct questions.

How is that question anywhere near relevant to our discussion about my personal experiences?

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

I do believe that others thoughts may be true. It seems to me that everyone in this thread believes that my thoughts and experiences are the ones that are untrue. People keep insisting that SOME of the men I met in my sample just HAD to be gay. They can't grasp the fact that possibly I have never known personally a gay masculine man.

<snip>

As a number of people here have pointed out there may be something else that you should be taking away from this tidbit of data than what you are insisting on.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I am gonna go with option 1.

Why?

Is it more likely that you have an unrepresentative sample of male acquaintances (or are just mistaken about the sexual preference of some people you know), or that every other person on the thread has?

For the record, of the people I have known well over the years, I have known one slightly effeminate gay man, one not at all effeminate gay man, one non-effeminate bisexual man, a lesbian (/bisexual?) couple who were not at all masculine/butch and a straight guy who was the campest person I have ever met.