Split Thread [Ed] Personal experiences with gays

[arthwollipot]

This is a good point. So this begs the question, is the way a gay guy acts at a gay themed party his actual personality, or is the one he portrays in a professional environment his personality? Or is the professional one just a cover...Or, is the party one just a cover...

Why do they have to be mutually exclusive? Can't they just be different aspects of a single personality?

Here's an analogy. When I am swordfighting with my friends, I act all manly and assertive, proclaiming my prowess even as swords are striking my head. When I go to work, I'm a lot more meek and nerdy. Which is my 'real' personality? Which is covering up for the other? Answer: neither. They're just two aspects of my personality, and I act according to circumstances, and to a certain extent expectations.

 

[arthwollipot]

It is not the norm for dudes to hug each other as a greet as women hug each other as a greeting. There is no fear of a hug from a fellow straight man, but it is simply out of the norm.

I disagree. If I see a man I haven't seen in a while, for example, whom I consider a good friend, I will hug that man whether he's straight or gay. And I'm not talking about side-hugs here.

It is perfectly normal for men to hug other men. In Europe, men even kiss each other in greeting.

 

[dafydd]

I disagree. If I see a man I haven't seen in a while, for example, whom I consider a good friend, I will hug that man whether he's straight or gay. And I'm not talking about side-hugs here.

It is perfectly normal for men to hug other men. In Europe, men even kiss each other in greeting.

Without any hint of sissy gayness. I wonder why quad gets so aerated about it?

 

[Ryokan]

If Quad were to guess the sexuality of the men in this video, I'm guessing he would be all wrong..

And the gay guy in that video served in the US Army for five years.

 

[arthwollipot]

As far as gays that I have met, I have actually met quite a few through my old job, my brothers friends, his work, etc. I have only personally known a limited amount of gays though.

How many men have you personally known who didn't tell you what their sexuality was and you just assumed that they were straight.

Statistically speaking, out of every 10 men you know, one of them is probably gay.

 

[arthwollipot]

You do come across as a homophobe. Why did you start this thread?

He didn't. He started another thread, and then this one split off from it.

And I don't think Quad comes across as homophobic. I think he doesn't have a full grasp on the reality of the situation and I think he is generalising based on his own limited experience, but I don't think he's in any way anti-gay.

 

[DC]

All I can say is that someone I play tennis with is a hairdresser who is a straight as anyone can be, with a wife and three kids. He told me that if he didn't camp it up in the salon he wouldn't have any customers.

I was once told to never get my hair cut by a straight male hairdresser or a gay female hairdresser.

Hey, I'm just the messenger.

hehe

 

[Quad4_72]

He wouldn't,that is the point that he doesn't seem to get. A long exposure to rednecks can have deleterious effects. I suggest a long stay in San Francisco.

I have actually not had as much exposure to rednecks as you would think. For example in Kentucky, I lived in Lexington for over 4 years. The amounts of rednecks there was minimal, seeing as how it is a fairly good sized city with a very large university in the middle of it. Lots of liberal folks, and a good number of gays actually. They were pretty easy to pick out, as I have already established. Then also, I lived in Portland, Oregon for 12 years. I would say that is definitely far from a redneck city. In fact, it is comprised of mostly hippies. Now, I will give you guys Utah. I lived there for 8 years and gays there were pretty scarce, as you can imagine. They were not non existent though, and you could definitely pick them out. With Texas and Georgia, I don't recall seeing any gays when I was living there. Granted I was on military bases, and there are few gays in the military from my experience.

 

[Rasmus]

How many men have you personally known who didn't tell you what their sexuality was and you just assumed that they were straight.

If I may: Nearly every single men I've met. And as quad pointed out, there is a high confidence for every single occasion, too.

Statistically speaking, out of every 10 men you know, one of them is probably gay.

Maybe this is a bit counter-intuitive?

I can be fairly certain that any random man I meet is straight. But the small off-chances add up. With 95% straights, for the sake of the argument, I'm left with 1 in 20 men who I meet that are gay. (This means of the .. .was it 47? ... men that Quad is leading, you'd expect at least two gays among them; nearly 5 if it's 10%)

Meeting these people one by one we can be fairly certain that, yup, this one is straight, too. But that simply doesn't add up if you take them all together.

 

[Quad4_72]

It's meaningless, since you haven't done any formal "sampling". You've just met a bunch of people that you didn't immediately detect as gay. And your "sample" includes a population with an extremely high motivation to conceal exactly the trait in question.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biased_sample

As I pointed out earlier, I have in fact lived in some liberal places, and the people from my sample I knew very well.

 

[Alan]

1/10 is an exaggerated figure if you look at self-reported identity.

I have actually not had as much exposure to rednecks as you would think. For example in Kentucky, I lived in Lexington for over 4 years. The amounts of rednecks there was minimal, seeing as how it is a fairly good sized city with a very large university in the middle of it. Lots of liberal folks, and a good number of gays actually. They were pretty easy to pick out, as I have already established. Then also, I lived in Portland, Oregon for 12 years. I would say that is definitely far from a redneck city. In fact, it is comprised of mostly hippies. Now, I will give you guys Utah. I lived there for 8 years and gays there were pretty scarce, as you can imagine. They were not non existent though, and you could definitely pick them out. With Texas and Georgia, I don't recall seeing any gays when I was living there. Granted I was on military bases, and there are few gays in the military from my experience.

You notice the tip of the iceberg.

 

[arthwollipot]

Exactly. One in ten is just one in ten. It's not a lot - so in general you can get away with assuming that most of the men you meet aren't gay. But when you're talking about hundreds, and an absolute confidence that none of them are gay, that's kinda going against the statistics.

My current workplace by the way I think skews the results a little. Out of fifteen, there is one whom I am pretty sure is gay (she once referred to her 'partner' with the feminine pronoun), six - including me - who I know to be straight (or at least have constructed elaborate and consistent fantasies about their families), and the rest I have no evidence either way. And this is a very socially casual workplace.

 

[Quad4_72]

You are aware that some gays keep the sexuality hidden in order to avoid negative social repercussion, right? Those who chose to do this feel threatened enough, or desire personal privacy enough to realize that the common stereotypes will give them away. They aren't particularly interested in letting everyone know their business.

I have used a margin of error for my sample for just these types of people. These individuals would have to be putting on a pretty elaborate cover though because like I said I know my sample pretty well.

Setting that aside for the moment, you've met hundreds of men that you, yourself, based on your definition of behavior, have recognized as gay. What makes you think that these hundreds represent the millions of gay men in America? What makes your sample special?

This is just my personal experience with gays. I find it somewhat relevant though to the general population, as I have met people from all parts of the country and lived in all parts of the country. Not to mention I have excluded all of the parts of the country I have traveled to and spent a significant amount of time in.

 

[Quad4_72]

How do you know this?



How do you know they are "straight"?

Dave

As I explained earlier, I know the people from my sample very well, and if any of the males who acted masculine were gay, they were putting on a very elaborate show to cover it up.

 

[Quad4_72]

Sweetie, darling, you are addressing people who have sample sizes many, many times larger than yours. Who know about being gay from the inside. Who've spent decades with gays --being their friends, being their lovers, talking to them, hanging out with them. I go to gay bars. I date gay men. I talk to them. Most of my friends are gay men. I'm one myself. In January I attended a social event with nine thousand other gay men. I believe I am vastly more qualified than you to draw conclusions about masculinity and teh gays. My statistics are better than yours.

Swish! *snap* *snap* *snap*

So you are saying that having lived in the gay community and basically been surrounded by gays for decades gives you some sort of better sample for the general population? Actually, all that does is give you a biased sample.

 

[The Don]

......... Granted I was on military bases, and there are few gays in the military from my experience.

This is the same military where, for many years, being gay was grounds for dismissal and where currently, being openly gay is grounds for dismissal. And yet there are few people who are readily identifiable as gay using a set of criteria which most readily identify gay stereotypes.

I am not surprised.

 

[Quad4_72]

He doesn't,that is the point. As for social mores,quad seems similar to many Americans I have met who seem to think that the world consists of a few states that they have lived in.They don't seem to understand that there is a big world out there and in many parts of said world people do not have the same lifestyle and attitudes as bible belters.

But we aren't talking about the rest of the world, are we?

 

[arthwollipot]

This is just my personal experience with gays.

It's in the thread title and everything!

Quad, do you accept that there may be people you have met and interacted with, who might have been gay but gave no indication of it?

 

[Quad4_72]

What if he wanted to keep it quiet and didn't indicate it. Until the 1960's in the UK they put you in jail for it,so people were good at hiding it. I don't know what they do down in bibleland but if I was gay or bi and lived there I would keep it quiet.

The way you seem to describe the general population, you seem to describe it as if half of the population of America is gay and many of them are just hiding it. What do you think the actual percentage of the population in America is that is gay?

 

[Rasmus]

I have actually not had as much exposure to rednecks as you would think.

I think at this point it is necessary to ask how exactly you go bout identifying a redneck...

For example in Kentucky, I lived in Lexington for over 4 years. The amounts of rednecks there was minimal, seeing as how it is a fairly good sized city with a very large university in the middle of it. Lots of liberal folks, and a good number of gays actually. They were pretty easy to pick out, as I have already established.

Now you're just playing silly buggers with my blood pressure, right?

Yes, some gay people are easy to pick out. You might still be wrong about some of the people you think are gay. But more importantly: You will miss a lot of gay people and think they are straight.

Then also, I lived in Portland, Oregon for 12 years. I would say that is definitely far from a redneck city. In fact, it is comprised of mostly hippies. Now, I will give you guys Utah. I lived there for 8 years and gays there were pretty scarce, as you can imagine.

No, I cannot imagine that!

What I can imagine is that people there would go to quite some lengths to hide their homosexuality, though. But assuming that a more or less fixed percentage of people just gets born gay (or ends up gay independent of social or other controllable factors, if you prefer), then the rate of gays in Utah would not be much different from everywhere else. (Slightly lower if gays decided to leave there given the chance.)

They were not non existent though, and you could definitely pick them out.

No! You could pick out *some* of them. But you have no reason to assume that those are somehow representative of the whole group of gays in the area.

You're displaying a mix of Affirming the Consequent and Denying the Antecedent.

Let's grant you that if a person acts camp, they are gay.
It doesn't follow that someone not acting camp is not gay.

Let's grant you that if a person is straight, they will 'act' straight.
It doesn't follow that someone who acts straight is straight.

With Texas and Georgia, I don't recall seeing any gays when I was living there. Granted I was on military bases, and there are few gays in the military from my experience.

No. You certainly saw tons of gay men. You just didn't' recognize them as being gay. They were still there. Even on the military bases.