Moderated Obama birth certificate CT / SSN CT / Birther discussion

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ANTPogo said:
No, he can't obtain a certified copy of his long-form birth certificate. No one can.

That's why all the Hawaii state officials, Democrat and Republican alike, say that no one can. That's why the DHHL website says the state doesn't issue them any more. That's why the request form for certificate copies has no option for "long-form" on it and hasn't since at least 2004. That's why the legions of Hawaiian-born tea party birthers haven't been able to get copies. That's why Miki Booth can't get copies for her husband and son.
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Wrong. We have examples of where other's have. Moreover, you can request specific information to be added such as exact place of birth.

You are just grasping at straws. Last week you stated no one could even obtain a copy. Now you say they won't certify it.

Just more spin from you...
 
Newtons Bit said:
That is a lie.



You want the President to get special treatment for access to private records?



It says the State must provide a certified copy, the way it currently does meets the laws requirements. Read the law.




And another lie.
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People have obtained certified copies of long-form birth certificates as recently as a month ago. If the Dept says they don't do that now, it has nothing to do with the law.
 
randman said:
That document just says someone registered his birth in Hawaii.
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The type of certificate he has released says that a medical professional registered his birth (had the registration been done by a family member, per the laws of Hawaii at the time of his birth, Obama wouldn't have received a "prima facie" certificate).

It does not say he was born in a hospital as claimed. Now, if he had just said he was born at home or something, it would likely stand but he or his campaign perhaps made a mistake claiming he was born in a hospital.
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If he wasn't born in a hospital, there was a doctor or other medical professional present at his birth, and it's that professional who registered said birth.
 
I...I get it. I get the whole thing now. At this point, the long game is to get the President to request privately that they just release the long form (which contains no relevant additional information) even though the law says they can't. They comply, since hey, it's the President, then you can impeach Obama for breaking the law while in office.
 
Here's another resource:

Certified copies of Birth Certificate are official copies issued by Vital Records Departments on the state or county level.
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From here.

Obama has provided an "official copy". It has been certified at the State level as a document containing all PERTINENT information that was on the original. Just because it doesn't include every single item that was on the "long form" does not mean it is not his true birth certificate. Every state in the US will accept that document as proof of his citizenship. Not ONE state has said they require the long form. The ONLY people saying he needs the long form are the idiots who want desperately to believe that he's not eligible and there will be some magic language on the original to prove this. There won't be. And I for one think people like BaC and randman over here are appallingly ignorant and are also BEYOND rude to think they have the right to request this of our President.

How would either of you like it if, in order to join this forum, you had to provide a copy of your birth certificate, and it had to be the original? And if you didn't have the original, either because you lost it or it was destroyed, and you had to go to the Department of Vital Statistics in whatever state you were born in and they wouldn't give you a copy of the original, and instead provided what every state in the US accepts as a legal and true document proving your birth here, what would you do then? Because in this hypothetical scenario, your birth in the US (assuming either of you was born here) would, in the eyes of the forum, not be proven, despite the legality of the document in every single state in the US. And despite you providing this fully legal document, you would be then denied access to this forum because you couldn't provide the original document.

THAT is how ridiculous your arguments come across as. How ridiculous the arguments of ANY Birther come across as, in fact. The idea that a fully legal and CERTIFIED document is somehow not sufficient, despite its admitted legality and acceptance by the governments of all fifty states AND any protectorates or territories of the United States, to prove his citizenship to you is the most ridiculous statement ever made in the HISTORY of this country, in my opinion. The patheticness of this argument cannot even BEGIN to be enumerated by any numbering system in this world. The two of you need to man up and admit, once and for all, that the ONLY reason either of you has any doubts is simply because you cannot stand Obama. Period. Attempting to legitimize your hatred does nothing but make you both look like utter fools.
 
randman said:
That document just says someone registered his birth in Hawaii. It does not say he was born in a hospital as claimed. Now, if he had just said he was born at home or something, it would likely stand but he or his campaign perhaps made a mistake claiming he was born in a hospital.

If that's the case, the original will show whether that is true, and considering other evidence, if he wasn't, maybe he really wasn't born in the US and so ineligible to be president.
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NO. It certifies that he was born in the state of Hawaii. Period. End of Story. You make claims on behalf of the document that the state explicitly refutes. It says it is a certified record of Obama's birth in the state of Hawaii. Your hospital qualification, even if it were true, is irrelevent as the document stands for his birth in the state of Hawaii ( A state of the United States, ergo born in the United States). Why, if your point had any merit would any state or the federal government give any credence to that document for the purposes of issuing passports, security clearances, etc?

Do you think that the State of Hawaii is just conning all of these people?

BTW...did you see the CNN piece where they went to the state records office with a person born in the same hospital on the same day as Obama, paid for a certified copy of the birth certificate and were issued EXACTLY the same certified COLB as Obama?

The document itself says it is "prima facia" evidence of Birth in the State. You can't get clearer.

I suspect you hated Clinton and thought that the "It depends on what the definition of is is" was moronic and decietful in the extreme.

You are playing the same exact game. You are very, very Clintionesque for pretending that words are different than their common meaning.

I hope they suspend me for a week for openly insulting you by calling you "Clintonesque".
 
headscratcher4 said:
NO. It certifies that he was born in the state of Hawaii. Period. End of Story. You make claims on behalf of the document that the state explicitly refutes. It says it is a certified record of Obama's birth in the state of Hawaii. Your hospital qualification, even if it were true, is irrelevent as the document stands for his birth in the state of Hawaii ( A state of the United States, ergo born in the United States). Why, if your point had any merit would any state or the federal government give any credence to that document for the purposes of issuing passports, security clearances, etc?

Do you think that the State of Hawaii is just conning all of these people?

BTW...did you see the CNN piece where they went to the state records office with a person born in the same hospital on the same day as Obama, paid for a certified copy of the birth certificate and were issued EXACTLY the same certified COLB as Obama?

The document itself says it is "prima facia" evidence of Birth in the State. You can't get clearer.

I suspect you hated Clinton and thought that the "It depends on what the definition of is is" was moronic and decietful in the extreme.

You are playing the same exact game. You are very, very Clintionesque for pretending that words are different than their common meaning.

I hope they suspend me for a week for openly insulting you by calling you "Clintonesque".
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Nope. it at best certifies someone said he was born in Hawaii. A hospital birth certificate would show that he actually was, especially as he claims he was born in a hospital. Absent that, we really don't know he was born in Hawaii as people registered births in Hawaii even when born elsewhere, and his family would want him to be a US citizen. He wouldn't have been otherwise.
 
ANTPogo said:
The type of certificate he has released says that a medical professional registered his birth (had the registration been done by a family member, per the laws of Hawaii at the time of his birth, Obama wouldn't have received a "prima facie" certificate).



If he wasn't born in a hospital, there was a doctor or other medical professional present at his birth, and it's that professional who registered said birth.
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Not necessarily. You can have a midwife that's not registered for example. Happens all the time, and then the family just registers the birth.
 
randman said:
Nope. it at best certifies someone said he was born in Hawaii. A hospital birth certificate would show that he actually was, especially as he claims he was born in a hospital.
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He was born with a medical professional in attendance, and said professional is the one who registered the birth.

Absent that, we really don't know he was born in Hawaii as people registered births in Hawaii even when born elsewhere,
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Not in 1961, they didn't. The law permitting that wasn't passed until 1982. And even in the case of people registered under that law, their certificate would show their actual place of birth, not Hawaii.
 
There is no such thing in Hawaii as a hospital birth certificate. All birth certificates are issued by the Department of Vital Statistics and have been since before Obama was even born. The only thing the hospital does is provide the information for birth announcements to the newspapers, and provide some information to the Department of Vital Statistics in order to allow a birth certificate to be issued.
 
ANTPogo said:
He was born with a medical professional in attendance, and said professional is the one who registered the birth.



Not in 1961, they didn't. The law permitting that wasn't passed until 1982. And even in the case of people registered under that law, their certificate would show their actual place of birth, not Hawaii.
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Prove it. Who was the medical person in attendance? Where is there any record of that?

And you are just flat out wrong about the law in 1961. A resident could bring a baby in, say he was born there, and register the birth.
 
Sabrina said:
There is no such thing in Hawaii as a hospital birth certificate. All birth certificates are issued by the Department of Vital Statistics and have been since before Obama was even born. The only thing the hospital does is provide the information for birth announcements to the newspapers, and provide some information to the Department of Vital Statistics in order to allow a birth certificate to be issued.
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You guys are incredible the lengths you go to in order to defend Obama.....no other birth certificate eh?

090728birthcert.gif
 
randman said:
Nope. it at best certifies someone said he was born in Hawaii. A hospital birth certificate would show that he actually was, especially as he claims he was born in a hospital.
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Wouldn't a "hospital birth certificate" just show that someone said he was born in that hospital?
 
randman said:
You guys are incredible the lengths you go to in order to defend Obama.....no other birth certificate eh?

[qimg]http://www.wnd.com/images/090728birthcert.gif[/qimg]
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Wow, a birth certificate from the 1966. That sure disproves the argument that Obama can't get one of those today. :rolleyes:
 
Sabrina said:
There is no such thing in Hawaii as a hospital birth certificate. All birth certificates are issued by the Department of Vital Statistics and have been since before Obama was even born. The only thing the hospital does is provide the information for birth announcements to the newspapers, and provide some information to the Department of Vital Statistics in order to allow a birth certificate to be issued.
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At the time, Hawaii allowed birth certificates (the actual original document) to be filed to the Department of Health by hospitals/doctors as well as private individuals in the case of home births.

You can see the old rules here. In this case, it required an affadavit by the father and at least one other person present at the birth (I think, it's under the "repealed" stamp and it's hard to read).
 
randman said:
Prove it. Who was the medical person in attendance? Where is there any record of that?
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It was possibly Dr. Rodney T. West, though it could have been another physician.

And the record is on the copy on file at the Hawaii Department of Health. Dr. Fukino stated directly that she saw the doctor's signature.

And you are just flat out wrong about the law in 1961. A resident could bring a baby in, say he was born there, and register the birth.
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Nope. HRS338-17.8 wasn't passed until 1982, and did not modify an existing statute.

The law in effect at time of Obama's birth, the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii, had no provision for registering out-of-Hawaii births in Hawaii. That's why 17.8 was passed in the first place.

In 1961, only births known or claimed to be in Hawaii could be registered. And if the only evidence that a birth took place in Hawaii was the word of the parents, then the certificate that was issued was not a prima facie certificate, but that "the probative value of the Delayed Certificate must be determined by the judicial or administrative body or official before whom the certificate is offered as evidence."

Obama's is a prima facie certificate, therefore there was more evidence for his birth in Hawaii than just the word of his parents: a medical professional attending the birth registered Obama as being born in Hawaii.

randman said:
You guys are incredible the lengths you go to in order to defend Obama.....no other birth certificate eh?

[qimg]http://www.wnd.com/images/090728birthcert.gif[/qimg]
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That was issued by the Department of Vital Statistics, not the hospital.

Just like Sabrina said.
 
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