Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

[JFrankA]

FFS. I give up.

As usual a thread on sex is taken over by the usual crowd who think having lots of kinky sex with lots of different people qualifies them to be able to comment on what should be considered good sex for everyone else.

Ivor, I'm sorry, but you are making some wild assumptions based on your experience. Some of us have different and perhaps more experience.

And, may I say, you are being very...err..."believer". You condemn those that actually lived the lifestyle that the OP is about, yet you are quick to put in your beliefs as facts when you have no idea about what the reality is and then insist you are right based on your own beliefs.

In essence, what you are saying is that no one should value the opinion of someone who has had the experience and should stick to the moral codes YOU set up.

Sorry, it doesn't work like that. Not in science, in human emotion and not in reality.

Come on, Ivor. I know you are better than that.

Back to SMM&T.

(Honestly, I don't know what SMM&T is. I'm terrible with abbreviations...)

Goodbye, I hope we don't meet again.

Unlikely, if you are going to hang out with humans. You're going to meet a lot of us who perform both kinky and non-kinky sex. You're going to find that a lot of us has had many partners, (many being as low as 5 and as high as uncountable).

The simple truth is that people have fantasies. That's the "norm". Some people's fantasies are more involved and darker than others, while some have just this one "unusual thing". Some people are lucky enough, brave enough perhaps to explore those fantasies in real life while being safe about them.

Look, human emotions and desires do not "fit" into an engineering mode. We are far more complex, unpredictable and intricate than anything one can engineer. That's what makes us fun. Because if you could engineer people's emotions and desires, then we'd all be robots.

 

[not daSkeptic]

I'm going out on a limb here and suggest that outside the group that includes people who are into swinging, prostitution and/or acting in porn films (i.e. the vast majority), having sex with strangers, particularly those that you don't like very much, is not as good as sex with people you do know, like and possibly love.

Essentially, you just said that different people like different things. Welcome to Earth.

 

[23_Tauri]

(Honestly, I don't know what SMM&T is. I'm terrible with abbreviations...) .

I think he means Science, Maths, Medicine and Technology sub-forums.

[irony filter on]presumably because the posters there rely on evidence, not their own pre-conceived notions of the way something should be[/irony filter off]

 

[bookitty]

I never claimed that.



Yes and? Do you honestly think that throwing people in jail is going to make the situation better for the people involved?!



Please show any evidence of that having the age of consent at 15 rather than 16 would lead to this. The age of consent ranges from 16 to 18 in America yet i could swear that "teen" porn is pretty *********** popular in the USA.



I'm more concerned about immoral people like you who seem more than willing to destroy other peoples lives because you're 'scared about the risks'.

Immoral? Because I think that 15 year olds shouldn't get their way? ? Personally, I think 16 us too young, but as I said that is the age when we start letting teens take control of their life. Trying to shame me into becoming more liberal isn't going to work.

Yes, I am worried about the risks of teen sex. Sex itself is risky. Incurable STD's and pregnancy are life-changing. I wouldn't make it legal for a 15 year old to get a tattoo, to drive unaccompanied, or to sign up for the military. Why make it legal for them to to be exploited by adults?

All I have been asking for is some evidence that having sex with an adult at 15 has more benefits than not having sex with an adult at 15.

And no, what's the difference between 15 and 16, isn't it. If the age of consent was set to to 13, there would still be people out there say "So what's the difference between 12 and 13? or 12 and 11?" The line is arbitrary, it has to be set somewhere. My opinion is that it should be set at 16 with Romeo and Juliet laws.

 

[JFrankA]

Immoral? Because I think that 15 year olds shouldn't get their way? ? Personally, I think 16 us too young, but as I said that is the age when we start letting teens take control of their life. Trying to shame me into becoming more liberal isn't going to work.

Yes, I am worried about the risks of teen sex. Sex itself is risky. Incurable STD's and pregnancy are life-changing. I wouldn't make it legal for a 15 year old to get a tattoo, to drive unaccompanied, or to sign up for the military. Why make it legal for them to to be exploited by adults?

All I have been asking for is some evidence that having sex with an adult at 15 has more benefits than not having sex with an adult at 15.

And no, what's the difference between 15 and 16, isn't it. If the age of consent was set to to 13, there would still be people out there say "So what's the difference between 12 and 13? or 12 and 11?" The line is arbitrary, it has to be set somewhere. My opinion is that it should be set at 16 with Romeo and Juliet laws.

You know, I pretty much agree with you.

To me, it's impossible to say "You're 16 now, it's okay to be sexually active - go experiment!" because it depends on the person. Hell, I know some 40 year olds who aren't ready for sex.

Further, there's a double standard with the genders. I'm sorry, but there is. I feel that if a 16 year old boy has sex with a 20 year old (or older) woman, the reaction for most men is "HELL YEAH!" But reverse it, (16 year old girl with a 20 year old (or older) man), the reaction is that the man is taking advantage of the girl. The "taking advantage of" reaction is even worse when it's a homosexual. More people are trying to level this double standard, but the reaction is still there.

With all that, how can we actually put an age to this?

See, I feel that there are times when the 15/16 year old may be ready to try something sexual. But to be honest, it's hard to really know if they are really ready because a teenager (and a lot of adults) don't understand the difference between reality and fantasy. Though I do feel that when a person, no matter what age, is ready to explore, they should. So why shouldn't a teenager, who is interested in BDSM get a chance to explore it? However, there's a process that everyone has to go through.

I see sexual exploration like I see anything else someone wants to learn, i.e. playing the piano or cooking: you got to start with the basics. That's why I feel that if my teenager comes up to me and says (and I realize how very unlikely that is going to be), "I like the idea of being submissive (or Dominate)", I would much prefer them to go to another adult that I trust to have them learn what actually happens then rather than to explore with another teenager who has no clue what's going on either.

And I'm sorry, books and the internet are there, it's a good starting reference, but it does not fill in for experience and one-on-one training. That goes with anything, not just sex, that one wants to learn.

Hell, we have tutors and mentors for teenagers everything under the sun: karate, guns, archery, piano, cooking, etc, etc, everything except for sex. And sex something everybody must deal with somehow. There's got to be a real way to teach and help teenagers (or older), when they are ready to do so, to explore their own sexuality safely and sanely. The way we have it now in the US is basically all adults are stumbling over themselves trying to teach without getting close to any boundaries and, unfortunately, right now, it seems like that's all we can do.

The basic point is that there is no "age" or "line" when someone is "ready for sex". It's a mixture of maturity and "readiness" (for lack of a better word). Some people reach it at 15, some people never reach it no matter how old they are. And in all actuality, sex is another thing that people should learn how to do and explore how they fit into it, like eating or cooking or anything else.

...err...sorry for the rant. Just something that has been bugging me since I was a teenager. I hope I didn't babble too much. I need a nap or something.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Hell, we have tutors and mentors for teenagers everything under the sun: karate, guns, archery, piano, cooking, etc, etc, everything except for sex. And sex something everybody must deal with somehow. There's got to be a real way to teach and help teenagers (or older), when they are ready to do so, to explore their own sexuality safely and sanely.

So we need men and women whose profession is to tutor and support younger people as they begin to explore the world of their own sexuality?

I'm registering the tradename 'Mentwhores'...

 

[JFrankA]

So we need men and women whose profession is to tutor and support younger people as they begin to explore the world of their own sexuality?

I'm registering the tradename 'Mentwhores'...

I'm volunteer to train sluts.

In all seriousness, there's got to be a way to have teenagers explore their sexuality and have them experiment safely and sanely.

....I just don't really know how.

 

[Arcade22]

Immoral? Because I think that 15 year olds shouldn't get their way?

Removed breach.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: LashL

Personally, I think 16 us too young, but as I said that is the age when we start letting teens take control of their life. Trying to shame me into becoming more liberal isn't going to work.

This isn't about shaming anyone. This is about you realizing how your views cause more harm than they 'reduce'. Hell, you haven't even explained how throwing people in jail for having consensual sex with a 15 year old is supposed to reduce any kind of harm.

Yes, I am worried about the risks of teen sex. Sex itself is risky. Incurable STD's and pregnancy are life-changing. I wouldn't make it legal for a 15 year old to get a tattoo, to drive unaccompanied, or to sign up for the military. Why make it legal for them to to be exploited by adults?

It isn't legal to 'exploit' anyone, no matter what their age is.

All I have been asking for is some evidence that having sex with an adult at 15 has more benefits than not having sex with an adult at 15.

Do you really need to THINK about what the benefits of a 15 year old having sex with adults are? Here, since you're so slow I'll help you along the way:

1) It generally feels good to have sex
2) It feels even better to have sex with someone that you're emotionally attracted to and are in love with

Do i need to continue or can you think for yourself for a moment?

 

[bookitty]

You know, I pretty much agree with you.

To me, it's impossible to say "You're 16 now, it's okay to be sexually active - go experiment!" because it depends on the person. Hell, I know some 40 year olds who aren't ready for sex.

Further, there's a double standard with the genders. I'm sorry, but there is. I feel that if a 16 year old boy has sex with a 20 year old (or older) woman, the reaction for most men is "HELL YEAH!" But reverse it, (16 year old girl with a 20 year old (or older) man), the reaction is that the man is taking advantage of the girl. The "taking advantage of" reaction is even worse when it's a homosexual. More people are trying to level this double standard, but the reaction is still there.

With all that, how can we actually put an age to this?

See, I feel that there are times when the 15/16 year old may be ready to try something sexual. But to be honest, it's hard to really know if they are really ready because a teenager (and a lot of adults) don't understand the difference between reality and fantasy. Though I do feel that when a person, no matter what age, is ready to explore, they should. So why shouldn't a teenager, who is interested in BDSM get a chance to explore it? However, there's a process that everyone has to go through.

I see sexual exploration like I see anything else someone wants to learn, i.e. playing the piano or cooking: you got to start with the basics. That's why I feel that if my teenager comes up to me and says (and I realize how very unlikely that is going to be), "I like the idea of being submissive (or Dominate)", I would much prefer them to go to another adult that I trust to have them learn what actually happens then rather than to explore with another teenager who has no clue what's going on either.

And I'm sorry, books and the internet are there, it's a good starting reference, but it does not fill in for experience and one-on-one training. That goes with anything, not just sex, that one wants to learn.

Hell, we have tutors and mentors for teenagers everything under the sun: karate, guns, archery, piano, cooking, etc, etc, everything except for sex. And sex something everybody must deal with somehow. There's got to be a real way to teach and help teenagers (or older), when they are ready to do so, to explore their own sexuality safely and sanely. The way we have it now in the US is basically all adults are stumbling over themselves trying to teach without getting close to any boundaries and, unfortunately, right now, it seems like that's all we can do.

The basic point is that there is no "age" or "line" when someone is "ready for sex". It's a mixture of maturity and "readiness" (for lack of a better word). Some people reach it at 15, some people never reach it no matter how old they are. And in all actuality, sex is another thing that people should learn how to do and explore how they fit into it, like eating or cooking or anything else.

...err...sorry for the rant. Just something that has been bugging me since I was a teenager. I hope I didn't babble too much. I need a nap or something.

I think I may have mentioned that any line drawn will be arbitrary. It's a very muddled age with a huge range of maturity levels.

I don't think that 16 year olds who seek out a mentor should be discouraged but I don't really like the idea of socialized sexual mentoring. The adults who would be most eager to do this would be the ones who already have a thing for teens. Being valued primarily for your physical aspects and sexuality sends a messed up message, one that teens are already exposed to far too frequently. For example, rates of eating disorders among teen boys are on the rise.

 

[bookitty]

Edited by LashL: 

Removed quote of moderated content.

This isn't about shaming anyone. This is about you realizing how your views cause more harm than they 'reduce'. Hell, you haven't even explained how throwing people in jail for having consensual sex with a 15 year old is supposed to reduce any kind of harm.



It isn't legal to 'exploit' anyone, no matter what their age is.



Do you really need to THINK about what the benefits of a 15 year old having sex with adults are? Here, since you're so slow I'll help you along the way:

1) It generally feels good to have sex 2) It feels even better to have sex with someone that you're emotionally attracted to and are in love with
Do i need to continue or can you think for yourself for a moment?

Ivor will be happy to see that. The rest of thread seems to have issue with the idea.

It generally feels good to smoke pot. It's fun to drive too fast. Being drunk is enjoyable. Driving fast while drunk is (presumably) a blast! Just because something feels good, doesn't mean that we grant legal access to it, especially to teens.

As Tina Turner once said - what's love got to do with it? You haven't been talking about love. You've been talking about 15 year olds who are trolling the net for sex. Studies show that victims of childhood sexual abuse are more active sexually as teens. How do you know if the boy who is trolling you is interested in something that feels good or if they are continuing to seek out sex with an older partner in order to be validated? If you were to discover that they had been molested, would your response be "That's horrible!" or "This time will be better."

 

[Senex]

I'll address your anecdote with an anecdote:
My wife asks me to watch porn with her, and another woman I know who watches porn - by herself - will only watch male dominated S&M porn.
Your limited world experience isn't the only possible one.

Hey, I gave you people 5%

My wife watches porn. So do both my teenage daughters -- although they try to hide that fact.

How do you know that?!

None of them care for male dominated S&M. As far as I know.

Why don't you know that?

Anecdote time! Every woman I know either currently watches porn on the net, or was surprised and delighted when they first discovered just how much was out there. Porn is fascinating.

Fascinating? Yes. But do the women you know spend a disproportionate amount of time on it? Do they focus on anal sex?

Interesting. You hear of women who watch porn, you make a joke about emailing them out of the blue to discuss this habit. Something about the fact that they are comfortable with sex makes them open to communication with a stranger who has not been vetted for safety. Just watching porn makes it ok to target those women.

I'm not targeting anyone (well, maybe yourself, and only for respectful on-line banter.)

Wouldn't it be better for women if they could just watch porn, have a nice wank, turn off the computer, go back to being productive without having to worry about the damn social implications?

That goes without saying. But what about watching porn with a buddy?

What's wrong with speaking German? My girlfriend is from Germany. She speaks German and teaching it to me.

Yeah, but you are volunteering to learn - or maybe not (is she wearing leather and holding a riding crop?

You don't know my girlfriend. She's disgusted (literally) by S&M porn that the female is dominate.

Why do you generalize? And you do very inaccurately.

I do? I said porn is male dominated. Your girlfriend has you doing some serious projecting that she evidently must have made you say. Grow a pair

Seriously? SERIOUSLY? The old "we saved your asses" argument?

One never tires of the classics.

That's a sly attempt at a Godwin, Senex. I didn't think you'd stoop so low.

Nothing sly about it.

[qimg]http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p133/debs711/icon_lol.gif[/qimg]

[Tauri slaps her own ass in disbelief]

Oh, you're just teasing me. That's not fair.

No disrespect Senex, but there are women out there that watch porn, and it's not the fuzzy, pink-tinged 'female erotica' of your preconceptions. Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion you appear to have a very narrow view of female sexuality.

I truly don't. I have watched porn with women but they initiate it less than 5% of the total porn time on the internet.

 

[JFrankA]

I think I may have mentioned that any line drawn will be arbitrary. It's a very muddled age with a huge range of maturity levels.

Agreed.

I don't think that 16 year olds who seek out a mentor should be discouraged but I don't really like the idea of socialized sexual mentoring. The adults who would be most eager to do this would be the ones who already have a thing for teens.

Perhaps. But I'm sure there would be a lot of other people who would take the mentoring seriously, with the teenager's best interest and welfare in mind. I'll admit that there's a whole lot of trust going on there from both teenager and adult. But to be honest, I can think of three people that I know I'd trust if my teenager ever came up to me and told me that she/he wanted to explore BDSM.

Being valued primarily for your physical aspects and sexuality sends a messed up message, one that teens are already exposed to far too frequently. For example, rates of eating disorders among teen boys are on the rise.

Who said anything about being valued for physical aspects? I'm talking about exploring one's own sexuality and the realities of what that particular sexuality is, be it vanilla, homosexual, BDSM, etc. And having someone mentor a teenager in it in a step-by-step fashion, just like we teach someone how to cook or play the piano.

 

[jiggeryqua]

I don't really like the idea of socialized sexual mentoring. The adults who would be most eager to do this would be the ones who already have a thing for teens.

You could arrange it like getting a barrister in the UK - they operate a 'cab rank' system, they're assigned the next case that turns up when it's their turn at the head of the queue. It would still likely be mostly teens showing up for mentoring, but mentors wouldn't get to pick the hot blonde ones. That would weed out most of those in it for their own selfish pleasures, with the upside that obese gingers with buck teeth and body odour would probably be more secure in their own bodies and more confident with their sexuality.

 

[JFrankA]

Yeah, but you are volunteering to learn - or maybe not (is she wearing leather and holding a riding crop?

Of course I'm volunteering. And I'm the one with the riding crop.

I do? I said porn is male dominated. Your girlfriend has you doing some serious projecting that she evidently must have made you say. Grow a pair

No, that's not what you said. Let's set the wayback machine.

Where are these porn watching women -- and I suspect it isn't male dominated S&M if they are watching.

You don't know my girlfriend. She's disgusted (literally) by S&M porn that the female is dominate.

If you're going to try to insult me, please have the common decency to give it a good attempt to follow the conversation and do it right. Amateurs. Sheesh.

 

[Senex]

None of you considered I went through 12 years of Catholic education (and we will exclude my high school years that went well). Maybe I have experience and it wasn't with a priest but with a female teacher.

Less than a year ago my grade school class had a reunion and we shared stories and it wasn't just me and next years piss on her grave reunion is certain to be well attended.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I remember reading a novel - years ago - called Tefuga by Peter Dickinson. It is set in Nigeria (1920s) and in it there is a kind of sexual mentoring that occurs in the tribe where most of the action occurs. The tradition is for teenage boys to be sent to an older female in the village, who he will call auntie and she teaches him how to have sex (and also gets to boss him about in general). I have no idea whether there is any factual basis for this or if the author made it up for the purposes of the story, but I always find these sorts of things interesting to look at from a cross cultural perspective.

WRT the age of consent, I see the age to be less about whether teens are "ready" for the respective activities at that age, but more about it being the age where we start to expect them to take responsibility for their own choices and mistakes rather than simply trying to protect them from making choices/being in situations that may lead to bad outcomes

 

[Arcade22]

It generally feels good to smoke pot. It's fun to drive too fast. Being drunk is enjoyable. Driving fast while drunk is (presumably) a blast! Just because something feels good, doesn't mean that we grant legal access to it, especially to teens.

You see, at some point one needs to realize that tacking on even worse consequence for something that might be risky isn't going to make the situation better. I dislike and think binge drinking is stupid, especially teenage binge drinking. However, it don't see how one can really think that throwing binge drinkers in jail is going to make the situation better for the people involved.

Same thing with having sex with a 15 year old. I have a hard time understanding how it would be reasonable to make no distinction between consensual sex and underage prostitution, rape, coercion and general exploitation and abuse.

The Swedish laws already distinguishes between incest, rape, underage prostitution, sex with someone in a position of dependence and normal consensual sex. Why do you think this is unreasonable?

As Tina Turner once said - what's love got to do with it? You haven't been talking about love. You've been talking about 15 year olds who are trolling the net for sex.

No you and i have been talking about the age of consent for sexual intercourse. This includes everything from one-night-stands with total strangers to sex between two lovers who have known each-other for months and everything in between.

Studies show that victims of childhood sexual abuse are more active sexually as teens. How do you know if the boy who is trolling you is interested in something that feels good or if they are continuing to seek out sex with an older partner in order to be validated?

I'm not a mind reader. Since my own sexual pleasure is generally derived from pleasuring others i can't, unless someone is obviously uncomfortable and doesn't want to have sex or whatever, know what they think or feel and i will assume that they just want to have sex because it feels good.

If you were to discover that they had been molested, would your response be "That's horrible!" or "This time will be better."

I've never been in that situation and i don't really know how i would react and i hope that i will never be in that situation either.

 

[JFrankA]

None of you considered I went through 12 years of Catholic education (and we will exclude my high school years that went well). Maybe I have experience and it wasn't with a priest but with a female teacher.

Less than a year ago my grade school class had a reunion and we shared stories and it wasn't just me and next years piss on her grave reunion is certain to be well attended.

....aaaaaaaaaaaand this is reverent to the OP how...?

 

[23_Tauri]

FFS. I give up.

As usual a thread on sex is taken over by the usual crowd who think having lots of kinky sex with lots of different people qualifies them to be able to comment on what should be considered good sex for everyone else.

Hey Ivor, I don't think we're talking for everyone else, nor do I think that it's appropriate to generalise about the folks posting on this thread, as the majority haven't given any indication that they are into 'kinky sex' as you put it.

I think a problem has arisen because it appeared to others that you spoke for the whole of the population by making a generalist statement about what makes ok sex into great sex. Others have put forward views based on their personal experience. Admittedly this is anecdote but I speculate that the combined sexual biographies of the half dozen or so posters that made a statement to the contrary, i.e. emotional intimacy is not what makes ok sex into great sex, is sufficient to give this contrary view greater weight.

I wager that had you at that point accepted that your statement was most likely inaccurate and added a (sheesh, I've had to use that emoticon enough times on Randi forum when I've made a mistake) then you wouldn't have put so many backs up. But instead we got this:

and this:

I hope to with you again some day.

 

[23_Tauri]

None of you considered I went through 12 years of Catholic education (and we will exclude my high school years that went well). Maybe I have experience and it wasn't with a priest but with a female teacher.

Less than a year ago my grade school class had a reunion and we shared stories and it wasn't just me and next years piss on her grave reunion is certain to be well attended.

Senex that is so unbelievably leftfield within the context of this discussion I can't see where it fits in. Hey, I was raised Catholic too, went to a school run by nuns and everything. What does that say about me?