Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

[bookitty]

Oh, but if a 15 year old specifically searches up an adult man for sex then the adult is supposed to be punished for this heinous deed whereas if it was with a teenager it would wholesome and nice?

Where did I say it was heinous?

Of course there is no magic line between adult and child. Any line drawn will be arbitrary. There will always be special cases that fall outside the boundaries. Cases in which young teens having sex with a significantly older partner are beneficial to everyone involved. If you can prove that these cases are the norm, that the majority of the time it is harmless, I will consider 16 to be too high for an age of consent.

 

[tesscaline]

As someone who is keen on replying to what was actually written, you will notice my statement did not exclude any of the above scenarios.

However, I appreciate it's easy to get swept along with the crowd when you're having a good time.

You said:

How do you teach emotional intimacy? That's what turns okay sex into great sex.

You say "that's what turns okay sex into great sex". Not "that is one of the things that". That IS what. You've made a statement that requires emotional intimacy in order for great sex to occur instead of just okay sex.

So, yes, your statement did actually exclude at least some of my above scenarios. Namely the one where I've had great sex with no emotional intimacy involved.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Do you know what a random sample is?

Do you know how to answer a straightforward question? For those of us with less grasp of, or interest in, strict mathematical probabilities, your expertise is required: how many white socks do you have to pull out of a drawer full of millions of white and black socks, where black socks are capable of turning white socks black, before reasonably concluding that most socks are probably white? Show your seasoning workings.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Do you know how to answer a straightforward question? For those of us with less grasp of, or interest in, strict mathematical probabilities, your expertise is required: how many white socks do you have to pull out of a drawer full of millions of white and black socks, where black socks are capable of turning white socks black, before reasonably concluding that most socks are probably white? Show your seasoning workings.

I'll take that as a 'no', which is why you don't understand what's wrong with your analogy.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

<snip>

You've made a statement that requires emotional intimacy in order for great sex to occur instead of just okay sex.

<snip>

Incorrect.

 

[Arcade22]

Where did I say it was heinous?

If it isn't wrong and immoral then why the hell would you want to make it a crime in the first place? Do you think punishing people for consensual sexual activity is going to solve anything? Do you think society will 'improve' because more people are throw in jail because some stupid law?

If you can prove that these cases are the norm

Why does it have to be the 'norm'?

that the majority of the time it is harmless

Most sexual activity seems to be directly harmless unless someone shows us exactly what harm there is. Raping, molesting, abusing (at least without their consent) and exploiting 15 year olds is illegal here just like it's illegal to exploit and abuse 25 year olds or 40 year olds. I've a hard time seeing why it would be beneficiary to not make any legal distinction between consensual sex with a 15 year old and raping one.

 

[tesscaline]

Incorrect.

Really? Because what you said means exactly what I described, at least to the majority of the english speaking world. If it's not what you meant, why don't you try to rephrase for clarity?

 

[JFrankA]

Incorrect.

Then what exactly did you say? Or try to say?

Sorry, Ivor, I was in love with my ex-wife very deeply and had the worst sex ever.

 

[bookitty]

If it isn't wrong and immoral then why the hell would you want to make it a crime in the first place? Do you think punishing people for consensual sexual activity is going to solve anything? Do you think society will 'improve' because more people are throw in jail because some stupid law?



Why does it have to be the 'norm'?



Most sexual activity seems to be directly harmless unless someone shows us exactly what harm there is. Raping, molesting, abusing (at least without their consent) and exploiting 15 year olds is illegal here just like it's illegal to exploit and abuse 25 year olds or 40 year olds. I've a hard time seeing why it would be beneficiary to not make any legal distinction between consensual sex with a 15 year old and raping one.

Because the brain of a 15 year old has not yet developed it's full potential for logic, empathy and consequence. This is why it is not legal for them to vote or purchase firearms. Because of this they can not give informed consent and sex with them is rape.

I don't understand why people are so eager to force a 15 year old to make adult decisions. We wouldn't let a 15 year old decide to take a full time job instead of going to school. We won't let them be soldiers. We won't let them get into long term debt by giving them a credit card (that isn't back by a parent.) Why put them in the position to decide if an older partner is a safe sexual experience or an exploitative one. There is a power imbalance.

What is lost if a 15 year old and an adult can not have sex? They don't get to have sex, that's it. The 15 year old can legally find partners their own age, the adult can legally find a 16 year old who will satisfy any ephebophilia. What is at risk is the exploitation of a vulnerable portion of society. It has not been shown that the benefits outweigh the risk.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Because the brain of a 15 year old has not yet developed it's full potential for logic, empathy and consequence. This is why it is not legal for them to vote or purchase firearms. Because of this they can not give informed consent and sex with them is rape.

I don't understand why people are so eager to force a 15 year old to make adult decisions. We wouldn't let a 15 year old decide to take a full time job instead of going to school. We won't let them be soldiers. We won't let them get into long term debt by giving them a credit card (that isn't back by a parent.) Why put them in the position to decide if an older partner is a safe sexual experience or an exploitative one. There is a power imbalance.

What is lost if a 15 year old and an adult can not have sex? They don't get to have sex, that's it. The 15 year old can legally find partners their own age, the adult can legally find a 16 year old who will satisfy any ephebophilia. What is at risk is the exploitation of a vulnerable portion of society. It has not been shown that the benefits outweigh the risk.

I was 15 once and I resented the government telling me what to do then just as much as I do now, that's why. I don't fully buy the argument that all 15 year old are incapable of rational thought. It's really that simple, I'm an err on the side of freedom and let the chips fall kind of person. This is why I picked 13 but would even just prefer a case-by-case basis.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Really? Because what you said means exactly what I described, at least to the majority of the english speaking world. If it's not what you meant, why don't you try to rephrase for clarity?

Can you think of any sex you've had which was qualitatively better because you were thinking at the time "I'm glad I don't really know this person or like them very much"?

My point was that young people don't need mentors to teach them new sexual positions or practices; they can get such information from a book or on the web and experiment with their partners. What they do need is to feel secure communicating with each other about what they like and don't like. That comes from developing a trusting and open relationship.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Can you think of any sex you've had which was qualitatively better because you were thinking at the time "I'm glad I don't really know this person or like them very much"?

Strawman. That has nothing to do with your original statement.

Oh and the answer is yes.

My point was that young people don't need mentors to teach them new sexual positions or practices; they can get such information from a book or on the web and experiment with their partners. What they do need is to feel secure communicating with each other about what they like and don't like. That comes from developing a trusting and open relationship.

Again, in your opinion. If you want to make claims they people don't need people to teach them you're going to have to back it up. Even experts like myself sometimes take pointers from more experienced people, especially in something as complex as bondage.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I was 15 once and I resented the government telling me what to do then just as much as I do now, that's why. I don't fully buy the argument that all 15 year old are incapable of rational thought. It's really that simple, I'm an err on the side of freedom and let the chips fall kind of person. This is why I picked 13 but would even just prefer a case-by-case basis.

Yeah, and screw the consequences. So what if more people are harmed because adults with a kink for having sex with adolescents are unimpeded?

 

[JFrankA]

Can you think of any sex you've had which was qualitatively better because you were thinking at the time "I'm glad I don't really know this person or like them very much"?

I can. Sheesh, you've never ever been to a swing party, have you?

My point was that young people don't need mentors to teach them new sexual positions or practices; they can get such information from a book or on the web and experiment with their partners.

You do realize you've just contradicted yourself in that sentence. If they experiment with their partner, what better partner to experiment with than with a mentor.

So, by your logic, it is better to learn how to sword fight by reading a book and experimenting with someone just as inexperienced.

Does that make sense????

What they do need is to feel secure communicating with each other about what they like and don't like. That comes from developing a trusting and open relationship.

????? Why wouldn't a mentor, even a sexual mentor, would not bring about trust, openness and communication. By definition that's what a mentor is supposed to do!

 

[NewtonTrino]

Yeah, and screw the consequences. So what if more people are harmed because adults with a kink for having sex with adolescents are unimpeded?

I don't think the consequences are really that bad so, yeah. On this issue, as with almost all issues, I'm on the pro freedom pro liberty side.

I'm also for legalizing drugs as well. Again, I prioritize freedom over safety just like the guys that gave the king the finger.

 

[NewtonTrino]

I can. Sheesh, you've never ever been to a swing party, have you?

He would run away screaming from a place like the Wet Spot (famous private club in Seattle now renamed).

You do realize you've just contradicted yourself in that sentence. If they experiment with their partner, what better partner to experiment with than with a mentor.

So, by your logic, it is better to learn how to sword fight by reading a book and experimenting with someone just as inexperienced.

Does that make sense????

Of course it doesn't but he's a moralist so he's just trying to justify how uncomfortable he feels when people are having fun and he's miserable.

 

[Arcade22]

Because the brain of a 15 year old has not yet developed it's full potential for logic, empathy and consequence.

Oh, and this magically happens the second they turn 16?

I don't understand why people are so eager to force a 15 year old to make adult decisions.

Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed personal comment

Why put them in the position to decide if an older partner is a safe sexual experience or an exploitative one. There is a power imbalance.

And there isn't a 'power imbalance' when a 16 year old girl is gang-banged and used like a human sex toy by five 40 year old men while she's restrained and unable to move freely? Color me surprised.

What is lost if a 15 year old and an adult can not have sex? They don't get to have sex, that's it.

What is lost is the ability to have consensual sex with 15 year old. Usually if one still does engage a 15 year old in sex then one is usually punished by this. Sometimes this punishment draconian like in that disgusting bastion of immorality that you come from.

The 15 year old can legally find partners their own age

And what if that 15 year old doesn't think that other teenagers are attractive? What if that 15 year old feels much more comfortable with a 35 year old man? What if that 15 year old finds the boyish bodies and personalities that his or her fellow teenagers have is a turnoff?

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed personal comment

the adult can legally find a 16 year old who will satisfy any ephebophilia.

Why the hell should one 'find' a 16 year old instead of a willing 15 year old who actually wants to have sex?

What is at risk is the exploitation of a vulnerable portion of society.

And this risk ceases to exist the second they turn 16?

It has not been shown that the benefits outweigh the risk.

I'm pretty sure 5 years in jail VS no jail time is a pretty huge benefit for someone who chooses to engage in consensual sex with a 15 year old, not that you care about any sort of societal benefit or the wellbeing of the people involved.

You know, let's just put the age of consent at 22. I'm sure there are plenty of 21 year olds who, due to to their relatively young age and little life experience compared to 50 year olds for example, are so vulnerable to abuse and exploitation. Surely throwing people in jail for years for having consensual sex with one is going to make the world a far better place for everyone involved. I mean, if a 21 year old came on to you and wanted to have sex you could just say no and go and find a 22 year old instead, right? Nothing is lost.

 

[23_Tauri]

Incorrect.

Is that goalpost moving or hole digging there?

You said "emotional intimacy makes ok sex into great sex" and within the context of the discussion you were implying that that was the missing ingredient, without which sex wouldn't be great.

But hey, maybe I and several others here didn't get what you were saying. Oops, careful of that hole down there, you could do yourself a nasty accident if you fell in that.

 

[tesscaline]

Can you think of any sex you've had which was qualitatively better because you were thinking at the time "I'm glad I don't really know this person or like them very much"?

So my assessment of your statement was correct then.

The answer, by the way, is a resounding yes.

My point was that young people don't need mentors to teach them new sexual positions or practices; they can get such information from a book or on the web and experiment with their partners. What they do need is to feel secure communicating with each other about what they like and don't like. That comes from developing a trusting and open relationship.

Wow... The amount of self contradiction in here is astounding. Do you even realize what you've said?

Would you suggest this course of action for any other activity? Rock climbing, flying a plane, driving a car, etc.? If not, why not? I swear, the amount of special pleading you're doing here is just mind boggling.

 

[23_Tauri]

Then what exactly did you say? Or try to say?

Sorry, Ivor, I was in love with my ex-wife very deeply and had the worst sex ever.

Spooky. Me too. I loved my ex-husband dearly, still do. He's probably my closest friend in that no-one knows me as well as he, and yet the sex was the worst I ever had.