'Lost Civilisations'

[JoeTheJuggler]

The level of which, exceeds what can be accomplished today using tools we know they had, and employing them is [sic] a conventional manner

False.

Stone masons can indeed do what they did with the tools and techniques they used. It's just that they don't often because we have better tools and techniques (and materials--like mortar).

Now if you're arguing that today's stone masons aren't as adept at the old techniques as the ancients were, that's simply because they don't use those techniques and tools day in and day out. But there's nothing mysterious about that. No need to posit "lost" advanced technology.

 

[King of the Americas]

And my point, yet again, is that without doing the basic research (ie, reading some peer-reviewed journals at minimum) you simply cannot make any of these claims. You have no evidence other than argument from personal incredulity.

I am pointing out that there is NO EVIDENCE that these things were done with traditional known methods, UNTIL someone uses period tools and KNOWN methods to replicate the works.

There is no KNOWN techniques of replicating these works, to this degree of difficulty.

UNTIL someone does replicate these works with period tools, then the manner in which these things were constructed is "lost".

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

What I don't understand is why people aren't more baffled by the incredible skill Michelangelo and his studio showed in sculpting stone. The human figures are outstanding--you can see muscles and blood vessels beneath the skin!

But again, skill like that also doesn't require "lost" advanced technology.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I am pointing out that there is NO EVIDENCE that these things were done with traditional known methods, UNTIL someone uses period tools and KNOWN methods to replicate the works.

There is no KNOWN techniques of replicating these works, to this degree of difficulty.

UNTIL someone does replicate these works with period tools, then the manner in which these things were constructed is "lost".

And you think this hasn't been done?

Have you ever heard of experimental archaeology?

ETA:

There was even a conference on the subject of experimental archaeology applied to ancient Egypt not so long ago:
http://onlinesuccessstepbystep.com/...ea-ancient-egypt-conference-available-online/

"This conference included an exciting array of demonstrations and talks, from flint knapping to flower arranging, from textiles to ship building, not to mention woodworking, stoneworking, manufacturing ritual clay artefacts, shipbuilding, antler bow manufacture, glassworking, an oral performance, and of course mummification!"


ETA: And I even saw this one on TV:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypti...n_techniques#NOVA_pyramid_building_experiment

 

[King of the Americas]

False.

Stone masons can indeed do what they did with the tools and techniques they used. It's just that they don't often because we have better tools and techniques (and materials--like mortar).

Now if you're arguing that today's stone masons aren't as adept at the old techniques as the ancients were, that's simply because they don't use those techniques and tools day in and day out. But there's nothing mysterious about that. No need to posit "lost" advanced technology.

TODAY, I use carbide tipped chisels, and diamond tipped drumel tools. I could make just about any stone into any shape you want. It will just take me some time depending on the hardness of the stone you want carved.

THESE efforts represent 'advanced' technology, in that they are supposed to be better than the hand tools of old... The 'problem' is that the stuff they did yesterday was AWESOME, even with the tools I have now, it would take me years to make just one of those lego stones (depending on the stone and my tools).

Without hardened metals, or some other 'advanced' method, I don't think the period tools were up to the take (again, depending on which stone was used).

What IS a 'mystery' to me is how one cuts descending inlayed squares into hard stone, with soft tools.

 

[Dinwar]

I am pointing out that there is NO EVIDENCE that these things were done with traditional known methods, UNTIL someone uses period tools and KNOWN methods to replicate the works.

And I'm pointing out that you're too ignorant of the current state of scientific (archeological) knowledge to make such a claim. Until you do the research YOU DO NOT KNOW, and pretending that you do is arrogant and insulting to those who toil away in desert heat, festering swamplands, and blistering jungles to gather the data that you believe can apparently be gleened from thin air. I've been on archeological surveys in the Central Valley of California. I've scrambled to take samples before the trench collapsed on me (to be fair, I was the stratigrapher on that job). I know what it takes to gather this data. You have not shown the most basic of intellectual humilty in asking the experst, via reading a journal! And you want us to take you seriously!!

Without hardened metals, or some other 'advanced' method, I don't think the period tools were up to the take (again, depending on which stone was used).

In science, the opinions of the willfully ignorant mean nothing, and are typically dismissed without a second thought. They may earn you a laugh, at best.

 

[anduin]

Wally Wallington

I know this is sort of old, but I show it every time that someone asks "how could they have done x" with stone. This guy moves and erects huge stones on his own using nothing other than wood, stones and ropes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCvx5gSnfW4&feature=player_embedded

Those arguing for mysteries only lack ingenuity and imagination.

 

[Vortigern99]

YOURS, I think:

http://www.doaks.org/publications/doaks_online_publications/isbn_0-88402-300-1.pdf

Then you have failed at even the most basic level of research required to make an informed argument. Puma Puncu is part of the Tiuanacu ("Tiwanaku") site. General discussion of Tiuanacu in the linked PDF file begins on p. 223 of that document. Discussion of Puma Puncu begins on p. 229:

The Puma Puncu is the other low pyramid complex at Tiwanaku, about a kilometer from the Putuni. It is 167.36 m north-south and 116.7 m east-west, with projections, 27.6 x ca. 20 m, on the corners of the east side. As reconstructed by Vranich (n.d.; Fig. 22), it consisted of two great courtyards, one to the east and another to the west of a four-terrace
platform that had an inner court sunken into the center of its f lat summit. As I have argued for the Kalasasaya-Putuni complex, Vranich (n.d.: 234) emphasizes that the Puma Puncu was “a dynamic center of ritual activity that was intentionally and substantially transformed over time.” Three major building epochs, in addition to small repairs and remodelings, are
documented. A radiocarbon date from the earliest construction epoch places it at 1510 ±25 B.P. (A.D. 440; calibrated, A.D. 536–600).​

The link I supplied to the above-quoted PDF was in direct reference to the age of the site, which you asked about a few pages ago. I summarized the information and supplied the reference and the link to it.

After I read your complaint that you could not find anything about Puma Puncu in the contents table or the index, it took me all of about a minute to find "Tiwanaku" in the index, and skim through that section till I came to the passage in question, regarding the age of Puma Puncu.

With your inability to do the most basic level of research in mind, it becomes clear why you believe the things you do.

 

[Vortigern99]

Without hardened metals, or some other 'advanced' method, I don't think the period tools were up to the take (again, depending on which stone was used).

What IS a 'mystery' to me is how one cuts descending inlayed squares into hard stone, with soft tools.

You are now ignoring the direct, hard, irrefutable evidence I have supplied for metal tools made of a unique alloy of copper-nickel in the region of Tiuanacu in the relevant period, and architectural cramps at Puma Puncu made of that same metal.

Q: How did the builders of Puma Puncu carve stone?
A: Probably with metal tools.
Q: Do we have any evidence for such tools in the region in the relevant period?
A: Yes.
Q. Do we have evidence that that metal was used at Puma Puncu?
A: Yes.
Q: Is this mystery solved?
A: YES.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

The 'problem' is that the stuff they did yesterday was AWESOME,

Some of it, but not all of it. In fact, not most of it.

There is awesome stonework done today as well. And all through the ages.

Few sculptors over the ages have been as good as Michelangelo. But it doesn't mean there was any "lost" advanced technology.

But there were also incompetent sculptors during the Renaissance and bad stone masons in ancient Egypt. As mentioned, there are plenty of examples of Egyptian masonry that isn't so awesome.

 

[Vortigern99]

If KotA cannot personally manipulate his sculpting tools to carve human forms, drapery shapes or hair-forms from marble, then the technology Michelangelo used to create his exquisite, lifelike sculptures must be LOST.

Indeed, that technology MUST have been supplied by an advanced race of super-humans, who then went on to perfect space travel -- which is why we have no direct evidence of their existence. THEY NOW LIVE IN THE CLOUDS.

 

[King of the Americas]

And you think this hasn't been done?

Have you ever heard of experimental archaeology?

Yep, at this moment, I am trying to get the Mythbusters to test PP...

 

[Andy_Ross]

I asm still trying to get my head round the idea that the Norman Stone Masons were 'Bodgers'

I suggest a visit to Durham Cathedral, It's a World Heritage Site, with good reason.

http://www.paradoxplace.com/Photo Pages/UK/Britain_Yorkshire_and_North/Durham_Cathedral/Durham.htm

For slightly later work (13th to 15th Century rather than 11th - 12th) visit York just down the road. See the Cathedral and the Roman remains as well.

 

[King of the Americas]

I know this is sort of old, but I show it every time that someone asks "how could they have done x" with stone. This guy moves and erects huge stones on his own using nothing other than wood, stones and ropes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCvx5gSnfW4&feature=player_embedded

Those arguing for mysteries only lack ingenuity and imagination.

I think such works represent 'found' techniques, not unlike what it took to build the Coral Castle.

Its maker claimed to have found or unlocked the mysteries of how the pyramids were built.

 

[Aepervius]

Some other method, a "lost technology" was employed here, and we DON'T know what it was...

I wanted to make a replay but at that point, an old proverb came to mind "there is no worst blind than the one which do not want to see".

 

[Dinwar]

I think such works represent 'found' techniques, not unlike what it took to build the Coral Castle.

Its maker claimed to have found or unlocked the mysteries of how the pyramids were built.

So......Lemme get this straight....

You demand that we perform tricks to demonstrate a possition we never held.
When someone succeeds in doing your tricks you dismiss the results without a second thought.

What reason do we have for doing what you ask? You've done no research, you've constantly argued against straw-man possitions, you've ignored our arguments, and now you're ignoring the very evidence you asked for!

 

[GeeMack]

I am pointing out that there is NO EVIDENCE that these things were done with traditional known methods, UNTIL someone uses period tools and KNOWN methods to replicate the works.

There is no KNOWN techniques of replicating these works, to this degree of difficulty.

UNTIL someone does replicate these works with period tools, then the manner in which these things were constructed is "lost".

The fact that any particular person doesn't have the knowledge, skills, or understanding of how something was done in the past is absolutely not evidence to support the notion that aliens did it. This is definitively an argument from ignorance.

 

[GeeMack]

TODAY, I use carbide tipped chisels, and diamond tipped drumel tools. I could make just about any stone into any shape you want. It will just take me some time depending on the hardness of the stone you want carved.

THESE efforts represent 'advanced' technology, in that they are supposed to be better than the hand tools of old... The 'problem' is that the stuff they did yesterday was AWESOME, even with the tools I have now, it would take me years to make just one of those lego stones (depending on the stone and my tools).

Without hardened metals, or some other 'advanced' method, I don't think the period tools were up to the take (again, depending on which stone was used).

What IS a 'mystery' to me is how one cuts descending inlayed squares into hard stone, with soft tools.

Again, this is by definition an argument from ignorance. As always it fails to support the silly notion that aliens must have been involved in the creation of the Puma Punku monuments. I've asked before, and I'll try again...

Here are a few very simple yes/no questions: Do you have any evidence that the stonework at Puma Punku was done with some kind of alien technology? (Arguments from incredulity and ignorance are not evidence.) Do you have any evidence that those who lived in the area when the monuments were built were so stupid or incompetent that they required alien help to do something that was being done routinely in other parts of the world for a couple thousand years prior? (Again, arguments from incredulity and ignorance are not evidence.) Do you have anything other than your declarations of incredulity to support your claims?​

Just yes or no. I'm not even asking for the evidence. I'm just asking if you have any.

 

[anduin]

I think such works represent 'found' techniques, not unlike what it took to build the Coral Castle.

Its maker claimed to have found or unlocked the mysteries of how the pyramids were built.

Did you even watch the video? Why bring up Coral Castle? Both are completely different things. Here the guy is telling you how he has done it using very basic tools, things that would be available to any ancient builder. There is no need for mysteries or woo explanations, the video is self-explanatory. All you need is a healthy does of inventiveness and ingenuity, things that are inherent in many humans.

Alas, those of your ilk lack imagination and ingenuity, and therefore find mysteries at every turn.

 

[carlitos]

quoting for King

In case he decides not to "reveal" the message.

Here are a few very simple yes/no questions:

• Do you have any evidence that the stonework at Puma Punku was done with some kind of alien technology? (Arguments from incredulity and ignorance are not evidence.)
• Do you have any evidence that those who lived in the area when the monuments were built were so stupid or incompetent that they required alien help to do something that was being done routinely in other parts of the world for a couple thousand years prior? (Again, arguments from incredulity and ignorance are not evidence.)
• Do you have anything other than your declarations of incredulity to support your claims?