Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

[23_Tauri]

Maybe Americans kept you from speaking German.

That's a sly attempt at a Godwin, Senex. I didn't think you'd stoop so low.

Where are these porn watching women -- and I suspect it isn't male dominated S&M if they are watching.

[Tauri slaps her own ass in disbelief]

No disrespect Senex, but there are women out there that watch porn, and it's not the fuzzy, pink-tinged 'female erotica' of your preconceptions. Maybe I'm wrong, but in my opinion you appear to have a very narrow view of female sexuality.

 

[23_Tauri]

Okay. From what little I've read of the case it appears the young woman was aware of what she wanted to do. Do you think that is the case for the majority of 16 year olds having "vanilla" sex with much older men or women, let alone BDSM involving bondage, stress positions and spanking/caning?

For example, this recent case shows the other extreme, with girls and young women being exploited by older men.

An awful case, yes. But let's look at it another way. Say the type of mentoring that I described in my post above was the cultural norm. The relationships would be known to the teenagers' guardians, there would be feedback and interaction between the teen, their parents and the older man/woman in question. With such open communication the kind of coerced abuse illustrated by the case you cite is very unlikely to happen, perhaps?

Why were those young women in a situation where they could be given drugs and alcohol before they were raped? Maybe I'm wrong, but comparing a rape case to what we are discussing, which is the responsibilities that society should or should not give to young people of the age of consent, seems a bit off topic to me.

If we were more accepting of the type of relationship in the OP, would we become less sensitive to cases where abuse and/or exploitation has taken place?

No. That is a rape case. It's completely different to what we're discussing. Do we treat rape of women over 20 with any less seriousness because they are grown ups? No, of course we don't. Rape is rape. Period.

All kinds of physical and psychological abuse of OAPs and other vulnerable groups is unfortunately common.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean we should take away the rights of 'vulnerable groups' to decide for themselves how they want to live their lives.

 

[23_Tauri]

It's a matter of trust and bridging the knowledge gap. In order to take on a sexual apprentice, the older person would have to be respectful of the younger person boundaries, go at the pace best suited to the younger and have some mechanism in place to protect the younger from something they weren't ready for. So it would start off with the same sort of conversation and mutual understanding that you find in BDSM sex between strangers.* The people involved would be more careful of their partner's needs.

I agree with all the above. Such safeguards would be essential in such a system.

It might be better to work this idea of trust and responsibility for your own sexual experience into sex ed, than to assume that adults are the only ones who could provide it.

Do you mean that only adults could provide trust and responsibility? No, I don't think you mean that, maybe that it's not just adults that could provide sexual experience. That's true, because all sex is sexual experience, but we learn the hard way (or maybe we never learn) but partnering up with other clueless adolescents. Not that that is a wasted experience, but there's a lack of direction in the whole 'coming of age' thing that we don't get from our parents.

I must stress I'm not saying I'm convinced this as the right way for society to go, but throwing it out there more to challenge our cultural preconceptions about sex generally.

* Note: I'm not saying that all BDSM sex has an elaborate conversation as foreplay. It's done by humans, and humans can be impulsive. However, it is more acceptable in the BDSM world to set your boundaries ahead of time, instead of just figuring it out as you go along.

Indeed.

 

[23_Tauri]

Interesting. You hear of women who watch porn, you make a joke about emailing them out of the blue to discuss this habit. Something about the fact that they are comfortable with sex makes them open to communication with a stranger who has not been vetted for safety. Just watching porn makes it ok to target those women.

Wouldn't it be better for women if they could just watch porn, have a nice wank, turn off the computer, go back to being productive without having to worry about the damn social implications?

Sadly, I think Senex just verified the point you made so eloquently in your post #247. As long as people like Senex continue to hold bigoted views about womens' sexuality, the type of 'she was asking for it' blame culture will continue to manifest itself.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

An awful case, yes. But let's look at it another way. Say the type of mentoring that I described in my post above was the cultural norm. The relationships would be known to the teenagers' guardians, there would be feedback and interaction between the teen, their parents and the older man/woman in question. With such open communication the kind of coerced abuse illustrated by the case you cite is very unlikely to happen, perhaps?

Actually, I think young people learning about having sex without emotional intimacy would lead to more cases of exploitation. I think young people need to learn about how to deal with the emotional aspects of human relationships before embarking on practical sexual education, which, after all, does not take a huge amount of time to master (or at least become competent at) once you get going and communicate with each other.

Why were those young women in a situation where they could be given drugs and alcohol before they were raped? Maybe I'm wrong, but comparing a rape case to what we are discussing, which is the responsibilities that society should or should not give to young people of the age of consent, seems a bit off topic to me.

I'm not comparing the two cases. I said that if we become more accepting of sexual relationships as described in the OP, would where we draw the line shift such that we miss more cases of abuse and exploitation? Would it make us more callous? Not much about the case in the OP would have to change for it to have become a case of exploitation and/or abuse.

No. That is a rape case. It's completely different to what we're discussing. Do we treat rape of women over 20 with any less seriousness because they are grown ups? No, of course we don't. Rape is rape. Period.

That's not what I was trying to get at.

Maybe, but that doesn't mean we should take away the rights of 'vulnerable groups' to decide for themselves how they want to live their lives.

We should be vigilant against possible exploitation and abuse of vulnerable groups, such as children and young people, OAPs, physically and mentally disabled people, etc.

 

[23_Tauri]

Actually, I think young people learning about having sex without emotional intimacy would lead to more cases of exploitation.

Possibly, but I don't think many teenagers embark on their journey of sexual exploration by having sex with emotional intimacy either. Call me a cynic, but sex with emotional intimacy is as rare as hen's teeth at any age, IMO.

I think young people need to learn about how to deal with the emotional aspects of human relationships before embarking on practical sexual education,

Again, I would concur, but that is an ideal, not what happens in the real world.

which, after all, does not take a huge amount of time to master (or at least become competent at) once you get going and communicate with each other.

Doesn't it? On the contrary, I think lots of grown ups don't know how to make love to their partner. It's an art, and not many people have mastered it. But then they've never had the benefit of having someone more experienced and attentive to show them how.

I'm not comparing the two cases. I said that if we become more accepting of sexual relationships as described in the OP, would where we draw the line shift such that we miss more cases of abuse and exploitation? Would it make us more callous?

Ok, sorry I read your post wrong.

I don't know the answers to your questions.

Not much about the case in the OP would have to change for it to have become a case of exploitation and/or abuse.

I disagree. The most important, most vital aspect would have to change. That of consent.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Somewhere above someone asked what the age of consent should be.

Personally I think a number like that is silly and it should be a case by case basis.

However, the easiest way to do it is probably to generalize in which case I would throw out 13.

 

[Ysidro]

My fiancee said to tell Senex she watches porn. Hell I've bought her porn. And toys. She doesn't get into m dom porn, but the real thing is another matter. *cough cough*

 

[bookitty]

Somewhere above someone asked what the age of consent should be.

Personally I think a number like that is silly and it should be a case by case basis.
However, the easiest way to do it is probably to generalize in which case I would throw out 13.

We had that conversation awhile back. Until societal expectations change, it's a bad idea because it would primarily benefit predators. As I mentioned above, it is more difficult for a teen who has had sex to report rape. A teen who had gone to court to defend a relationship with an older partner would have little recourse if they wanted to end the relationship but the partner did not.

 

[NewtonTrino]

We had that conversation awhile back. Until societal expectations change, it's a bad idea because it would primarily benefit predators. As I mentioned above, it is more difficult for a teen who has had sex to report rape. A teen who had gone to court to defend a relationship with an older partner would have little recourse if they wanted to end the relationship but the partner did not.

I don't disagree. It's just that in my ideal world people wouldn't be subject to cookie cutter rules like specific ages for things etc. Under our current system of government we pretty much have no choice but to use a number.

 

[bookitty]

I don't disagree. It's just that in my ideal world people wouldn't be subject to cookie cutter rules like specific ages for things etc. Under our current system of government we pretty much have no choice but to use a number.

As it stands now, yes. Although I don't like an arbitrary number and would rather we go by a higher age of consent like 16 with Romeo and Juliet laws in place to avoid penalizing teens for playing with each other.

 

[23_Tauri]

My fiancee said to tell Senex she watches porn. Hell I've bought her porn. And toys. She doesn't get into m dom porn, but the real thing is another matter. *cough cough*

Girls and their toys? Heck, that deserves a thread all of its own down in Forum Community!

 

[Mark6]

I think young people need to learn about how to deal with the emotional aspects of human relationships before embarking on practical sexual education, which, after all, does not take a huge amount of time to master (or at least become competent at) once you get going and communicate with each other.

Coming from an avowed virgin, this is hysterical.

Sex is a SKILL. Like any skill, if you want to be good at it, you have to put your mind to it. Most people in US at least never get really good at it. Moreover, large number of people (possibly over 50%) do not even realize they COULD be better at it. There is a REASON books are written on this subject!

 

[23_Tauri]

Coming from an avowed virgin, this is hysterical.

Sex is a SKILL. Like any skill, if you want to be good at it, you have to put your mind to it. Most people in US at least never get really good at it. Moreover, large number of people (possibly over 50%) do not even realize they COULD be better at it. There is a REASON books are written on this subject!

^ This.

I was over 40 before I met a man who knew what he was doing in the bedroom. And I had had plenty of sexual partners prior to that revelatory experience. Real life Cassanovas are few and far between, sadly.

This is why I mooted the sexual apprentice/older mentor idea. Seems so sad that we go through life not knowing what we're missing, in both the giving and receiving department.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Coming from an avowed virgin, this is hysterical.

Really? News to me.

Sex is a SKILL. Like any skill, if you want to be good at it, you have to put your mind to it. Most people in US at least never get really good at it. Moreover, large number of people (possibly over 50%) do not even realize they COULD be better at it.

Have you had sex with most people in the US? If not, how do you know how good the sex is that they're having?

There is a REASON books are written on this subject!

To be able to sell such books you have to convince people they're no good at sex.

The main purpose of the media is to convince us we're inadequate and need to buy X, Y and Z to fix our deficiencies. The reason so many books are written on the subject is because sexuality is something it is very easy to make people feel insecure about and so make money selling them stuff.

 

[JFrankA]

Actually, I think young people learning about having sex without emotional intimacy would lead to more cases of exploitation. I think young people need to learn about how to deal with the emotional aspects of human relationships before embarking on practical sexual education, which, after all, does not take a huge amount of time to master (or at least become competent at) once you get going and communicate with each other.

Wow. I completely missed that line.

If you think just the physical part of sex is easy to master, then I'm sorry Ivor, you have no idea what you are doing.

....kind of like someone going to a piano, playing chopsticks and saying "See? Playing the piano is easy!!!!"

 

[JFrankA]

To be able to sell such books you have to convince people they're no good at sex.

The main purpose of the media is to convince us we're inadequate and need to buy X, Y and Z to fix our deficiencies. The reason so many books are written on the subject is because sexuality is something it is very easy to make people feel insecure about and so make money selling them stuff.

You know, I don't rely on books to tell me that I'm good or bad in bed. I rely on people's reactions and what they say or feel and how much they trust me. So sometimes, I don't have to have sex with a person to know whether I'm doing something sexually right or wrong. I just have to interact with them.

 

[23_Tauri]

Have you had sex with most people in the US? If not, how do you know how good the sex is that they're having?

What?

How big a sample do you think one needs before coming to the conclusion that most people don't know how to make love to their partner?

(Note: I'm using the terminology 'make love' to differentiate from merely putting it in and taking it out again, which alone would be classified as sex).

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

^ This.

I was over 40 before I met a man who knew what he was doing in the boudoir. And I had had plenty of sexual partners prior to that incredible, revelatory experience. Real life Cassanovas are few and far between, sadly.

This is why I mooted the sexual apprentice/older mentor idea. Seems so sad that we go through life not knowing what we're missing, in both the giving and receiving department.

Yeah, it must have been all those men who were deficient at sex. Your lack of satisfaction prior to the age of 40 has nothing to do with you.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

What?

How big a sample do you think one needs before coming to the conclusion that most people don't know how to make love to their partner?

(Note: I'm using the terminology 'make love' to differentiate from merely putting it in and taking it out again, which alone would be classified as sex).

I realise that the SI&CE sub-forum is often a place of less intellectually rigourous discussion than, say, SMM&T, but are you seriously asking that question?