General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

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angrysoba said:
Mind you, this link suggests that there isn't a lot of confidence in the legal system as around half of the population believes it is politically motivated.
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Predictably, especially since right now Yediot Aharonot came out with an enomrous "discovery" about Netanyahu's "corruption": he allegedly "pressured" organizations in front of which he gave fund-raising speeches to give him special VIP treatment. This turned out to be -- unsurprisingly -- a big nullity, when the organizations the newspaper accused him of "pressuring" went went public declaring it's all nonsense, and they gave exactly the same VIP treatment to other VIPs, and they pointed out that it's not at all unusual for the prime minister to get VIP treatment (duh).

The Israeli press, Ha'aretz in particular, despise Netanyahu, and blow up anything about him or his government in the most negative light, so much so that the Israeli press and television, is simply not believed by a large percentage of the population -- much like the New York Times and other mainstream media outlets are no longer believed by a large percentage of the American public. (Hence the popularity of Fox News: it's not it's fairness and accuracy, which are a sad joke, but that many people, from long experience, simply don't believe the "old media" to show any facts that don't fit with the left-liberal-progressive "correct" worldview, as seen, for example, in their massive genuflection to Barak "A sort of God" Obama in 2008, so they watch FOX by default.)

It is thus not surprising that people think Lieberman's investigation is "punishment" for Neyantahu's government being unpopular in the powerful Israeli press. But as a matter of fact it's nonsense. The investigation had been going on for years, and, if nothing else, the left-leaning Olmert, the darling of the Israeli press, is also under investigation. What's more, this is dangerous: when the press reports bad news the public tends to shrug it off as "they're just bashing Neyanyahu", when the reality might indeed be bad and requiring action.
 
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The Fool said:
As this issue gets closer what is the likelyhood that Lieberman's party will fall apart if he is found guilty. As his party is needed in the coalition for Netanyahu to hold government I'm surprised this is not getting more attention.

whats the likely outcome here?


ETA...damn link asks for registration.....sorry, please just google it up, its in a number of places
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Attention from whom? The people that live there certainly don't want to discuss their local politics on an international forum that's largely hostile no matter what, and the anti-Israel chorus doesn't really care who Israel's Prime Minister is, they'll still blame him for stalling the peace process, invent conspiracy theories about how he's manipulating the Palestinians into violence and call him a "war criminal" whenever he respond to the latest atrocity committed by Hamas.

Be honest here. The names have changed before, but the mindless rhetoric stays pretty much the same. The next guy is gonna get the same irrational hate as the current guy, the last guy, the guy before that, and so on.
 
Skeptic said:
Predictably, especially since right now Yediot Aharonot came out with an enomrous "discovery" about Netanyahu's "corruption": he allegedly "pressured" organizations in front of which he gave fund-raising speeches to give him special VIP treatment. This turned out to be -- unsurprisingly -- a big nullity, when the organizations the newspaper accused him of "pressuring" went went public declaring it's all nonsense, and they gave exactly the same VIP treatment to other VIPs, and they pointed out that it's not at all unusual for the prime minister to get VIP treatment (duh).

The Israeli press, Ha'aretz in particular, despise Netanyahu, and blow up anything about him or his government in the most negative light, so much so that the Israeli press and television, is simply not believed by a large percentage of the population -- much like the New York Times and other mainstream media outlets are no longer believed by a large percentage of the American public. (Hence the popularity of Fox News: it's not it's fairness and accuracy, which are a sad joke, but that many people, from long experience, simply don't believe the "old media" to show any facts that don't fit with the left-liberal-progressive "correct" worldview, as seen, for example, in their massive genuflection to Barak "A sort of God" Obama in 2008, so they watch FOX by default.)

It is thus not surprising that people think Lieberman's investigation is "punishment" for Neyantahu's government being unpopular in the powerful Israeli press. But as a matter of fact it's nonsense. The investigation had been going on for years, and, if nothing else, the left-leaning Olmert, the darling of the Israeli press, is also under investigation. What's more, this is dangerous: when the press reports bad news the public tends to shrug it off as "they're just bashing Neyanyahu", when the reality might indeed be bad and requiring action.
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That's what you get when your media is all run by Jews.
 
Mycroft said:
Attention from whom? The people that live there certainly don't want to discuss their local politics on an international forum that's largely hostile no matter what, and the anti-Israel chorus doesn't really care who Israel's Prime Minister is, they'll still blame him for stalling the peace process, invent conspiracy theories about how he's manipulating the Palestinians into violence and call him a "war criminal" whenever he respond to the latest atrocity committed by Hamas.

Be honest here. The names have changed before, but the mindless rhetoric stays pretty much the same. The next guy is gonna get the same irrational hate as the current guy, the last guy, the guy before that, and so on.
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I'm really not asking you to recite what you feel some undetermined group thinks. I don't really think the Actions of the Israeli Judiciary is "irrational hate" do you? What I am asking is what you think potential charges against Lieberman will have on Netanyahu's grip on the Leadership. I think its the elephant in the room.
 
Skeptic said:
Predictably, especially since right now Yediot Aharonot came out with an enomrous "discovery" about Netanyahu's "corruption": he allegedly "pressured" organizations in front of which he gave fund-raising speeches to give him special VIP treatment. This turned out to be -- unsurprisingly -- a big nullity, when the organizations the newspaper accused him of "pressuring" went went public declaring it's all nonsense, and they gave exactly the same VIP treatment to other VIPs, and they pointed out that it's not at all unusual for the prime minister to get VIP treatment (duh).

The Israeli press, Ha'aretz in particular, despise Netanyahu, and blow up anything about him or his government in the most negative light, so much so that the Israeli press and television, is simply not believed by a large percentage of the population -- much like the New York Times and other mainstream media outlets are no longer believed by a large percentage of the American public. (Hence the popularity of Fox News: it's not it's fairness and accuracy, which are a sad joke, but that many people, from long experience, simply don't believe the "old media" to show any facts that don't fit with the left-liberal-progressive "correct" worldview, as seen, for example, in their massive genuflection to Barak "A sort of God" Obama in 2008, so they watch FOX by default.)

It is thus not surprising that people think Lieberman's investigation is "punishment" for Neyantahu's government being unpopular in the powerful Israeli press. But as a matter of fact it's nonsense. The investigation had been going on for years, and, if nothing else, the left-leaning Olmert, the darling of the Israeli press, is also under investigation. What's more, this is dangerous: when the press reports bad news the public tends to shrug it off as "they're just bashing Neyanyahu", when the reality might indeed be bad and requiring action.
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but these proceedings are not a popularity contest judged by the general public. I don't think the Israeli Judiciary is going to be swayed by any campaign by any newspaper. Do you agree?
 
I *do* agree, but the only thing the court actually did was decide to prosecute him. All the rest -- the "elephant in the room", as in "how this will effect Netanyahu" -- is journalistic musing, which is bound (in Israel) to be 100% pure anti-Netanyahu.
 
Skeptic said:
No. "Fuchs" (pronounced something like "Fux") is a rather common German-origins name.
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Yeah, I know. I just found it humourous as his first name is "Camil". Pronouncing his family name something like "Fux" doesn't make it less funny for me. I know, I know. I'm being puerile[sp?] but the humour for me was in imagining a respected academic being just as peurile[sp?].
 
The Fool said:
I'm really not asking you to recite what you feel some undetermined group thinks. I don't really think the Actions of the Israeli Judiciary is "irrational hate" do you? What I am asking is what you think potential charges against Lieberman will have on Netanyahu's grip on the Leadership. I think its the elephant in the room.
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No, the Israeli judiciary is not what I was referring to as the "anti-Israel chorus", but I think you probably knew that. I expect the Israeli courts are acting appropriately according to whatever evidence is before them and I don't feel any particular need to attribute a political motive to whatever they're doing.

What I was saying, and apparently I have to say it again, is that what happens to Netenyaho, if he's replaced and who replaces him won't make a bit of difference to the anti-Israel chorus who constantly produces anti-Israel propaganda, nor to their drones who regurgitate it all wherever they can, including internet forums such as this. The next guy will be hated just as much as this guy is.



The Fool said:
Trying to have a rational discussion here. Feel free to join in.
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Turning over a new leaf, are you? Great! I fully encourage you in that endeavor.

Why don't you start by telling us which Israeli politicians you like and why? Maybe favor us with some policy changes you think Israel should adopt, and explain how they would improve the peace process? Or at the very least, what's your opinion of the likely outcome of this issue with Lieberman?
 
angrysoba said:
Yeah, I know. I just found it humourous as his first name is "Camil". Pronouncing his family name something like "Fux" doesn't make it less funny for me. I know, I know. I'm being puerile[sp?] but the humour for me was in imagining a respected academic being just as peurile[sp?].
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I am so with you on this. How can you possibly have a serious conversation that involves a guy named Camil Fuchs?
 
angrysoba said:
If you mean that Ken O'Keefe's ranting was a parody then I'm afraid not. He really does seriously mean what he says. He appears on a number of You Tube clips including one where he was on a panel with Yvonne Ridley. He was talking about how the Lusitania sinking and Pearl Harbor were "false flags" to get the US into wars. Yvonne Ridley came across much saner than him by pointing out that Germany declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor which was not the inevitable result of an attack by Japan.

When Yvonne Ridley is saner than you then you ought to worry. But of course you would only worry about it if you were sane.
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Israel/Palestine, where Logic and Reason (tm) go to die.
 
Mycroft said:
No, the Israeli judiciary is not what I was referring to as the "anti-Israel chorus", but I think you probably knew that. I expect the Israeli courts are acting appropriately according to whatever evidence is before them and I don't feel any particular need to attribute a political motive to whatever they're doing.

What I was saying, and apparently I have to say it again, is that what happens to Netenyaho, if he's replaced and who replaces him won't make a bit of difference to the anti-Israel chorus who constantly produces anti-Israel propaganda, nor to their drones who regurgitate it all wherever they can, including internet forums such as this. The next guy will be hated just as much as this guy is.
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Thanks for the prediction on how unnamed groups will react to a new government but I still don't understand its relevance to the questions I ask..




Turning over a new leaf, are you? Great! I fully encourage you in that endeavor.
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arguably you are a similar offender? Maybe this is an oportunity to turn this ******** thread into something worthwhile?
Why don't you start by telling us which Israeli politicians you like and why? Maybe favor us with some policy changes you think Israel should adopt, and explain how they would improve the peace process? Or at the very least, what's your opinion of the likely outcome of this issue with Lieberman?
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You have a deal if you intend to form and put forward your own opinions on the topic too.

Allowing for the fact that he may be able to delay judgement for quite a while I think that if he does fall then his party will splinter and become unstable too....as its a group Netanyahu needs in the coalition in order to survive....but thats netanyahus decision, possibly he could have taken in another mob with a less extreme agenda.

Although I personally would like to see Liebermans mob out of the picture as Its my opinion that they would take netanyahu down if he made serious moves towards peace...

over to you?
 
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Skeptic said:
I *do* agree, but the only thing the court actually did was decide to prosecute him. All the rest -- the "elephant in the room", as in "how this will effect Netanyahu" -- is journalistic musing, which is bound (in Israel) to be 100% pure anti-Netanyahu.
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so what? Are your views derived from these "journalistic musings"?

simply put...if Lieberman gets found guilty....will his party hold together? Willl they still prop up Netanyahu's coalition?
 
Seems Mycroft Isn't interested either. Anyone want to take up the Issue I posed to him?

"You have a deal if you intend to form and put forward your own opinions on the topic too.

Allowing for the fact that he may be able to delay judgement for quite a while I think that if he does fall then his party will splinter and become unstable too....as its a group Netanyahu needs in the coalition in order to survive....but thats netanyahus decision, possibly he could have taken in another mob with a less extreme agenda.

Although I personally would like to see Liebermans mob out of the picture as Its my opinion that they would take netanyahu down if he made serious moves towards peace...

over to you?"
 
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The point, TF, is that you seem obsessed with Israel. If I went online constantly to talk about nothing but internal Australian politics -- despite never having been to Australia, and knowing next to nothing about the place's politics or culture -- the question would be, why?
 
Skeptic said:
The point, TF, is that you seem obsessed with Israel. If I went online constantly to talk about nothing but internal Australian politics -- despite never having been to Australia, and knowing next to nothing about the place's politics or culture -- the question would be, why?
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just a reminder this thread isn't actually about me...Do you have anything to post on topic?
 
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