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Creating life from matter

It may be a convenient conversation stopper used to dismiss a Creationist who claims that gaps mean evolution theory is a fail, but claiming abiogenesis and evolution are two different things is akin to confirming intelligent design. Is one suggesting evolution started with a formed cell or some version of it?

No evolution starts once you have something that is self replicating. There quite a bit of work on digital organisms for example. Most of abiogensis is currently focused on how you get that far.

I realize it is a common copout among some in the scientific community to claim the two are different things, but I call 'copout' when I see it.

Evolution is mostly covered by biology while abiogenesis is even more chemistry than molecular biology.
 
I like the way Nova Science Now portrayed the abiogenesis to evolution transition. Evolution is the well known "Tree of Life" that started off with the common ancestor. Whereas abiogenesis is the root system that led up to the common ancestor.

You need to draw the line SOMEWHERE, right? :D
 
Over at RatSkep, Calilasseia has his usual excellent smackdown on "5 tough questions":

1. How did life begin?
2. Is any form of life really simple?
3. Where did the instructions come from?
4. Has all life descended from a common ancestor?
5. Is it reasonable to believe the bible?


[1] How did life begin?

The correct answer is "whilst we do not know for certain the answer to this question, we have a large body of experimental evidence pointing to relevant testable natural mechanisms, that have been demonstrated repeatedly to work in the laboratory". The testable natural mechanisms in question being chemical reactions. It is perfectly reasonable to postulate chemical reactions as the basis for the origin of life, because living organisms today are manifestly reliant upon chemistry for their functioning, and the body of evidence for this is overwhelming. Scientists have elucidated in exquisite detail a whole range of metabolic pathways, ranging from the utilisation of glucose to produce energy in metazoan cells, through the chemistry of photosynthesis in plants, to the mechanisms extant for the synthesis of DNA itself. Indeed, so vast is the extant body of literature presenting the relevant empirical elucidation of these chemical reactions, that it would take several dozen lifetimes for a human being to read them all. Consequently, since we have a vast body of evidence to the effect that life is chemistry writ large, it makes eminent sense to postulate a chemical origin thereof.

[2] Is any form of life really simple?

In order to answer this, one needs to have in place a proper, rigorous metric defining what is meant by "simple", and conversely, what is meant by "complex". Without such a metric, the question is meaningless.

However, light is once again being shone upon this question by relevant laboratory research. Scientists are now in the position to plan and execute experiments focusing upon the properties of model protocells, of the sort that are hypothesised to have been formed 3.5 billion years ago. These model protocells are considered to be "simple" in the sense that they are composed of a minimal set of constituents, namely a single strand of RNA, encapsulated within a lipid vesicle. How these model protocells behave, and whether it is possible for such protocells to acquire additional features via evolutionary processes, will constitute a major area of study for abiogenesis researchers in the future.

Indeed, much of the previous research in the field of naturalistic abiogenesis centred upon the establishment of a rigorous basis for the appearance of the building blocks needed for said protocells, and the empirical demonstration that relevant molecules were not only capable of self-assembly, but did so quite naturally under relevant conditions. The cutting edge of research is now moving toward determining how the first protocells were likely to behave, based upon the notion that the models being constructed in the laboratory are reasonable models for those past protocells. Should those models produce the relevant empirical results, namely, that the relevant experiments demonstrate that such minimal model protocells can indeed acquire additional features, and that those features bear appropriate relationships with key features seen in modern cells, then those who wish, for ideological reasons, to dismiss testable natural processes as being capable of producing the biosphere from simple chemical antecedents, will find life much harder.

[3] Where did the instructions come from?

This is a deliberately loaded question that presupposes its purported "answer". The simple fact is, that whilst the chemical reactions that are associated with genetics and the inheritance of traits, bear the appearance of "instructions", carrying this analogy too far is misleading. Not least, because it has been determined by numerous researchers and their empirical work, that the so-called "genetic code" is itself an evolvable entity. Indeed, numerous papers on this subject exist, illuminating our understanding of the origin of the genetic code, and all serious researchers consider that body of work to be sound and robust.

[4] Has all life descended from a common ancestor?

The evidence for a "yes" answer to the above is overwhelming. Not least, because, having elucidated the basics of inheritance, scientists are in a position to know what patterns would appear in the genes of living organisms, if common descent with modification was in operation, and what patterns would appear if this mechanism were not in operation. The evidence is conclusive - common descent with modification unifies the entire biosphere. The patterns expected to appear as a result of this mechanism have been found right across the biosphere, in everything from single-celled amoebae to primates. Denial of the validity of this evidence is not only untenable, but farcical.

[5] Is it reasonable to believe the Bible?

No. This book contains hilarious absurdities, that could only have been written by people who were woefully ignorant of, for example, basic biology. A classic example being the nonsense contained in Gen 30:37-39, which asserts that it is possible to induce large scale changes in the genomes of living organisms, by the faintly ridiculous process of having the parent animals mate alongside different coloured sticks. An Austrian monk demonstrated that this was nonsense, by providing an empirical determination of the real mechanisms underlying inheritance. I direct the interested reader to look up "Gregor Mendel".
 
one is a theory of an observed fact the other is a hypothesis of something never observed.

Yes.
Evolutionary biology studies observable facts in the existing world.
The idea of Evolution of all life we know from a single common ancestor in the geological past begs the question of how the common ancestor came to be.
There are multiple competing valid hypotheses as to how a self replicating information carrying chemical system originated, but these hypotheses remain just that. We will never know and can never observe it (unless time travel billions of years into the past becomes possible).
The science to date does make it clear that abiogenesis is entirely within the realm of possibility, but the exact sequence of events that occurred on earth billions of years ago is unknowable.
 
Yes.
We will never know and can never observe it (unless time travel billions of years into the past becomes possible).


Well, I think that's a bit too definitive in the context of experimental verification. Should we be able to do something in the lab that replicates the type of mechanism it will be a huge step in understanding it all. Again, the Nova Science Now episode shows that we are still trying to figure out the basic steps (the baking analogy was brilliant in my opinion).
 
one is a theory of an observed fact the other is a hypothesis of something never observed.

I think abiogenesis is a little better than that!

We CAN observe experiments that theorize various aspects about it. It is not entirely hypothetical:

There have ben many, many experiments on abiogenesis. On this web page, I have listed 88 published papers on the subject, many dealing with the way self organizing molecules can be presursors to RNA.



The point is that this assertion of abiogenesis and evolution being fundamentally different and separate from one another is a widespread piece of dogmatism.
I am all for melding these two things, but I think your attitude, here, is too harsh. I think you are confusing the systematics of acadamia as "actual scientific insight".

The academic world is going to study them separately, whether you like it or not, because the differences between them are sufficient to warrant it. The mechanisms are different. They focus on different processes, etc. Etc.

But, importantly, that does NOT mean they are "dogmatically" treated like two completely different things! BOTH studies meld together. Every scientist knows that and expects that.

You should try to understand that.

In fact, I am sure there are plenty of scientists who do work in both fields, bridging the two worlds together.

By your logic, we should abandon the distinction between chemistry and physics.

But, as I stated earlier:
When it comes to debating creationists, however, there is no point in declaring such a difference, because it only sounds like a copout when you do so.
 
one is a theory of an observed fact the other is a hypothesis of something never observed.
One is a theory confirmed with overwhelming evidence, the other is part of the same theory and no more than one unanswered question not yet explained completely.

If abiogenesis is not part of evolution theory, then how did evolution begin? Are you claiming evolution theory is an incomplete theory and were it complete, abiogenesis would still not be part of it?

I understand why people make the distinction between the first replicating molecules and evolution theory selection processes. But they are wrong and it comes from a failure to imagine how selection occurs in the first stages of evolution from no life to life.
 
I think it comes from the human desire to categorize everything. Nature has no obligation to conform to our neurosis. Just ask if a prion is "alive" and see how that debate goes. :D
 
Perhaps the difference between abiogenesis and evolution is somewhat (though not perfectly) similar to the difference between physics and chemistry. One melds into the other, at some point. But, they are treated separately by the academics, because the differences between them are sufficient to warrent separate study.


I strongly concur with this statement.

And I also strongly concur with nearly everything Mr Hewitt has said on this forum to date.
 
No evolution starts once you have something that is self replicating. There quite a bit of work on digital organisms for example. Most of abiogensis is currently focused on how you get that far.

Evolution is mostly covered by biology while abiogenesis is even more chemistry than molecular biology.
The basis of evolution is random mutation and selection pressures. Random mutation, nucleotides, RNA, DNA, codons, protein synthesis and folding ... all chemistry. This may be where you need to consider a paradigm shift. And perhaps we are not as far apart as you think.

Clearly there was a first self replicating organic molecule. That molecule differed from a simple growing crystal or other similar molecules in that instead of just accumulating atoms, the first replicating molecule had to have two parts that split and reassembled its other half then split again over and over.

This is where the process of evolution begins and where the process of 'only' chemistry leaves off. If one wants to define the process of evolution beginning somewhere else then you need to justify the difference between the first replicating molecule and the first replicating organism (using a broad definition of 'organism' to include acellular organisms like viruses). I see no logical way to define such a difference.
 
I like the way Nova Science Now portrayed the abiogenesis to evolution transition. Evolution is the well known "Tree of Life" that started off with the common ancestor. Whereas abiogenesis is the root system that led up to the common ancestor.

You need to draw the line SOMEWHERE, right? :D
Since roots are part of plants, your analogy has a flaw. The seed is where the plant starts. The division is between the nutrients the seed absorbs and makes the plant from. Nucleotides and other non-replicating molecules are the dirt and a simple replicating molecule is the seed.
 
...., but the exact sequence of events that occurred on earth billions of years ago is unknowable.
Quite the extreme view, "unknowable". Is the composition of the Earth's core "unknowable" just because we cannot observe it directly? Is the sequence of events of the Big Bang, "unknowable" because we can't go back in time and directly observe them?


I think we'll figure out the most likely means abiogenesis occurred at some point, probably sooner than you think. But regardless, there is no reason to think it is "unknowable". To claim it is unknowable puts way to much fantasy into the process of life.
 
I think it comes from the human desire to categorize everything. Nature has no obligation to conform to our neurosis. Just ask if a prion is "alive" and see how that debate goes. :D
Prions do not self replicate, rather they appear to cause a domino effect on protein folding. There are other examples of toxins that once introduced into a living organism continue to cause damage without being limited by the introduced dose. If the proposed mechanism of damage is correct, prions act more like a toxin than a life form.
 
Okay, then that was a bad example. What about viruses? Have those been decidedly declared "alive"? I'm sure there is something that defies our catagorizations. :D
 
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It may be a convenient conversation stopper used to dismiss a Creationist who claims that gaps mean evolution theory is a fail, but claiming abiogenesis and evolution are two different things is akin to confirming intelligent design. Is one suggesting evolution started with a formed cell or some version of it?

I realize it is a common copout among some in the scientific community to claim the two are different things, but I call 'copout' when I see it.

I argue that point myself. They are related problems, not independent ones.

You can have evolution occurring among simple chemicals that have managed to figure out a way to duplicate themselves. Scientists who are looking for that + a bag to put it in (typically suggested to be from chemicals that happen to be around, and this bag's formation is distinct from the reproducing DNA, and thus not dependent on it, early on in evolution and life.)

That seems unnecessarily restrictive to the problem. As long as the environment of the reproducing proto-DNA is not too damaging so as to out-damage the ability to reproduce itself, you're good to go for evolution.
 
I agree with SkepticGinger's comments in reply to you.

I would add that, when the term evolution is used in biology it normally refers to the progressive changes that arise as a consequence of reproduction and selection. That may be a reference to natural selection as Darwin described it but that is not necessarily so - not even for Darwin himself, who recognized other selective mechanisms as also important.

The point is that this assertion of abiogenesis and evolution being fundamentally different and separate from one another is a widespread piece of dogmatism. There is not the slightest supportive evidence for it and plenty of reason to think otherwise.

My suggestion is simple enough - stop saying things that ain't so.

Skeptic Ginger
So you are claiming that some kind of whole organism existed before selection occurred. I suggest you need a paradigm shift. Selection does not require anything more than reproduction. Perhaps it is your definition of reproduction that needs to be broader rather than diluting the definition of evolution theory.

There's been a lot of progress in the science of abiogenesis. I think if you looked into it you might find the selection mechanisms are not that difficult to imagine.

Evolution by natural selection is a process that requires imperfect self replication in order to operate. Abiogenesis is the beginning of life from non-life, which by definition cannot be self replication (note the word "self"). What could be simpler? We are dealing with logic -- not biology -- here.

Nevertheless, feel free to use the word evolution in the broader sense of the "evolution of a chemical process" -- if it rings your bell! Just remember it has nothing to do with evolution through natural selection, which is the process biologists mean when they say "evolution."
May you both have a good day.
 
I think somebody, somebody who knows how to do such things, should organize a vote on whether abiogenesis did, or did not, occur by an evolutionary mechanism.
 
I think somebody, somebody who knows how to do such things, should organize a vote on whether abiogenesis did, or did not, occur by an evolutionary mechanism.

Since we don't have enough data to know how (or where) abiogenesis happened at all, I don't think that question is answerable at this time.
 

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