Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[HumanityBlues]

You are right, so you are in with Stilicho? I will make up a So many misconceptions, so little time award that the winner can have for just some minor shipping and handling charges.

Spelled "due" wrong. Damn. Anyways, I think Stilicho was perceptive about what was going on pretty early.

 

[Kaosium]

Daric is a simple case of someone trying to make themselves into a "self made celebrity". He saw the number of hits to his site spike after he wrote about AK, and then wrote fake articles about how all the teens of Tacoma were getting the news about the case from his website. He claimed to read the Massei report and change his mind "when he saw how Raffaele walked out of the house with a knife" but that is an obvious lie. I think he is along the spectrum of people who lie to garner attention. E.g. he said he had AK as a camp counselor, that inside sources said MK had an affair with Patrick, that he graduated from HS at 16 and is going to college, that he was blocked from going to the grocery store (library?) by a mob of pro AK protestors. I am puzzled by what is going through the minds of the pmf people, it is like a group psychosis or something. The issue is how he folded into the warped mentality of pmf.

Don't any of you guys read The Onion?

That's what we consider a 'tabloid' where I come from. I don't think it's a coincidence so many of his articles resemble pieces from the UW-Madison's contribution to 'higher journalism.'

My money's on SB, he'll be getting the classic "Thanks for stopping by" in no time is my guess.

 

[Mary_H]

Don't any of you guys read The Onion?

That's what we consider a 'tabloid' where I come from. I don't think it's a coincidence so many of his articles resemble pieces from the UW-Madison's contribution to 'higher journalism.'

My money's on SB, he'll be getting the classic "Thanks for stopping by" in no time is my guess.

You're right, Kaosium -- it is like The Onion!

PMF can't say we didn't warn 'em.

 

[spartacus]

It was already written about on the beforeyoutakethatpill website but they chose to ignore it or move on. I am sorry for filling this forum with silly things that are a distraction from talking about the case but since it was brought up in discussion thought I could clarify.

 

[spartacus]

oh and add me to the list on pmf who were told "thanks for stopping bye." and that was before they "outed" me.
At the time I didn't know what the site was about and had some honest questions and they literally told me "go away". (follow up was "what two words of that statement do you not understand?") that was where I realized something was seriously amiss here.

 

[theRealBob]

Just a quick note.

People have commented that they don't know about the trail of glass leading from Filomena's room straight to the front door.

Masse used it as one of the central tenets of proof in his um, thing he had to rite.

 

[Kaosium]

___________________

Kaosium,

Massei was opaque. The English Translation was wrong. Andrea Vogt properly explained why Tagliabracci (Raffaele's expert) spoke about the cat's blood....

"He also pointed out contradictions between the results and what Stefanoni actually wrote in her technical report. Specifically, Stefanoni wrote that a mattress cover from the downstairs apartment had tested positive for cat blood and negative for human DNA, when the actual results showed a positive result for human DNA." (See: Here)

///

Thank you, Fine. Come to think of it, a long time ago I believe I ran across a conversation about that...elsewhere...in Daric Richie's new digs.

I wonder why Stefanoni did that, simply an error, or she didn't want to 'confuse the jury' regarding Amanda and Meredith's mixed DNA? I'd guess the former, though I wonder if there was any thinking along the latter line when it was translated. Though it could also be they didn't realize human DNA and cat blood can co-mingle.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Just a quick note.

People have commented that they don't know about the trail of glass leading from Filomena's room straight to the front door.

Masse used it as one of the central tenets of proof in his um, thing he had to rite.

Have you got any more information, like where the original claim was from, did it ever get introduced into court? If true one would think that the prosecution would have made a big thing about it.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Trying to piece things together still. Would most agree that this would be a fair representation of the "Innocent" Timeline? Any mistakes or issues where it doesn't match known fact? I am planning a "Guilty" one too so at the moment just trying to piece togther when things occured based on the innocence claims.

18:15 – 18:30

• Meredith and her friends start eating dinner, Pizza.

19:30

• Rudy leaves home

19:53

• Rudy arrives at Cottage, watches to see if anyone is home.

(Could he open have Filomena’s shutters at this point?)

20:00 - 20:15
(Ruby leaves, where does he go? Why?)

20:22

• Rudy returns to cottage. (Does he have the rock now?)

20:30-20:50

• Rudy opens Filomena’s Shutters, either from the front of the house, leaning out to the window, or by climbing the boy’s window grill. (if not already done.)
• Rudy breaks window with rock, watches for signs of occupancy
• Rock enters via window, hitting inner shutter, and is deflected down and to the left into a bag of clothing that subsequently falls over.
• Rudy climbs to window (from the house front? Marks consistent with this appear in photos, did anyone ever try asnd see if this was possible?)
• Rudy removes the broken glass from the frame to allow access to the latch
• Rudy cleans right side of sill of glass, opens the window, and climbs through

20:45

• Movie finishes and Meredith and Sophie leave for home (which movie did they watch?)

20:50

• Rudy starts to search through Filomena’s room, and then heads to the bathroom to use it

21:05

• Meredith arrives home

21:05-21:10

• Having heard Meredith return home, Rudy leaves bathroom without flushing and attempts to exit front door to avoid detection.

~ 21:10

• Meredith discovers Rudy, struggle insures

21:10 – 21:20

• Meredith and Rudy fight
• Rudy stabs Meredith several times, likely the first times are accidental, the last to shut her up
• Rudy panics and runs to the bathroom to get towels to stop the bleeding

(Somewhere here, he either decides to either sexually assault her or make it look like a sexual assault, removes jacket, rolls up t-shirt, rips off bra, and takes off her jeans, or is this later)

~21:30

• Meredith dies

21:30 – 21:40

• Rudy returns to bathroom in an attempt to clean off the blood, takes off shoe to clean pants. Get Meredith’s blood on door, light switch, sink, and other places.
• With no towels left in bathroom Rudy can’t dry his pants leg, gets blood on bathroom mat.

21:40 – 21:50

• Rudy returns to Meredith’s bedroom, moves her and covers her body with duvet

(Removes jeans here?)

21:50 – 21:55

• Rudy takes cell phones, money, and leaves

22:00

• Rudy accidently (?) activates phone as he walks through park, the phone attempts to ring the first number, Abbey Bank.

 

[Chris C]

Just a quick note.

People have commented that they don't know about the trail of glass leading from Filomena's room straight to the front door.

Masse used it as one of the central tenets of proof in his um, thing he had to rite.

Actually the only piece of glass that I know of outside of Filomena's room was found in Meredith's. So that trail isn't exactly straight to the front door. Plus any trail from filomena's room to the front door would be meaningless since people were walking in and out of filomena's room before the body was discovered.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Actually the only piece of glass that I know of outside of Filomena's room was found in Meredith's. So that trail isn't exactly straight to the front door. Plus any trail from filomena's room to the front door would be meaningless since people were walking in and out of filomena's room before the body was discovered.

Can you cite for this, since that would be important based on that it would have had to have been transfered from Filomena's to Meredith's bedroom after the window was broken and there would seem to be few reasons to return there after staging a break in.

 

[Ampulla of Vater]

Trying to piece things together still. Would most agree that this would be a fair representation of the "Innocent" Timeline? Any mistakes or issues where it doesn't match known fact? I am planning a "Guilty" one too so at the moment just trying to piece togther when things occured based on the innocence claims.

18:15 – 18:30

• Meredith and her friends start eating dinner, Pizza.

19:30

• Rudy leaves home

19:53

• Rudy arrives at Cottage, watches to see if anyone is home.

(Could he open have Filomena’s shutters at this point?)

20:00 - 20:15
(Ruby leaves, where does he go? Why?)

20:22

• Rudy returns to cottage. (Does he have the rock now?)

20:30-20:50

• Rudy opens Filomena’s Shutters, either from the front of the house, leaning out to the window, or by climbing the boy’s window grill. (if not already done.)
• Rudy breaks window with rock, watches for signs of occupancy
• Rock enters via window, hitting inner shutter, and is deflected down and to the left into a bag of clothing that subsequently falls over.
• Rudy climbs to window (from the house front? Marks consistent with this appear in photos, did anyone ever try asnd see if this was possible?)
• Rudy removes the broken glass from the frame to allow access to the latch
• Rudy cleans right side of sill of glass, opens the window, and climbs through

20:45

• Movie finishes and Meredith and Sophie leave for home (which movie did they watch?)

20:50

• Rudy starts to search through Filomena’s room, and then heads to the bathroom to use it

21:05

• Meredith arrives home

21:05-21:10

• Having heard Meredith return home, Rudy leaves bathroom without flushing and attempts to exit front door to avoid detection.

~ 21:10

• Meredith discovers Rudy, struggle insures

21:10 – 21:20

• Meredith and Rudy fight
• Rudy stabs Meredith several times, likely the first times are accidental, the last to shut her up
• Rudy panics and runs to the bathroom to get towels to stop the bleeding

(Somewhere here, he either decides to either sexually assault her or make it look like a sexual assault, removes jacket, rolls up t-shirt, rips off bra, and takes off her jeans, or is this later)

~21:30

• Meredith dies

21:30 – 21:40

• Rudy returns to bathroom in an attempt to clean off the blood, takes off shoe to clean pants. Get Meredith’s blood on door, light switch, sink, and other places.
• With no towels left in bathroom Rudy can’t dry his pants leg, gets blood on bathroom mat.

21:40 – 21:50

• Rudy returns to Meredith’s bedroom, moves her and covers her body with duvet

(Removes jeans here?)

21:50 – 21:55

• Rudy takes cell phones, money, and leaves

22:00

• Rudy accidently (?) activates phone as he walks through park, the phone attempts to ring the first number, Abbey Bank.

Ew! Ew! Ew! (In true Horseshack fashion.) I know one of the answers! Meredith and her friends watched the movie "The Notebook"

 

[Chris C]

Can you cite for this, since that would be important based on that it would have had to have been transfered from Filomena's to Meredith's bedroom after the window was broken and there would seem to be few reasons to return there after staging a break in.

Its coverened extensively in Sollecito's appeals concerning the single piece of glass in Meredith's room.
The prosecution blames the single piece of glass on the floor as to be the source of all of meredith's defensive wounds on her hands, and yet is foggy on how a piece of glass from the window could cause the defensive wounds on Meredith's hands if the window was broken after Meredith was killed.

What I mean by foggy is this.
1. Prosecution blames cuts on Meredith's hands the result of the piece of glass. Eventhough no blood on the glass.
2. Prosecution claims it could have been tracked into the room after Meredith was killed.

 

[Kaosium]

Have you got any more information, like where the original claim was from, did it ever get introduced into court? If true one would think that the prosecution would have made a big thing about it.

Having read Bob elsewhere my guess is that was his way of saying the Massei Motivations report. I can't find it, and outside what may be a 'recovered memory' can't recall reading it in there before. I found the part where he claims the glass got into the murder room due to them allegedly re-entering to cover her with the duvet before they left, but I can't find anything about a trail of glass. I do however have this vague recollection there was some piece of glass in the hall, which along with the one in the murder room might be a 'trail' of two pieces outside Filomena's room that Massei might have referred to but I can't find.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Trying to piece things together still. Would most agree that this would be a fair representation of the "Innocent" Timeline? Any mistakes or issues where it doesn't match known fact? I am planning a "Guilty" one too so at the moment just trying to piece togther when things occured based on the innocence claims.

That looks plausible to me.

Rudy's DNA was also found inside Meredith's person, so at some stage he sexually assaulted her. There was a stain on the pillow under her hips which might or might not be semen, which the police decided not to test and which the defence were trying to get them to test.

Given that Meredith's bra was removed after the fatal wound was inflicted, the sexual assault probably took place afterwards too.

Also, I suspect you aren't going to have much luck getting the guilters to give you a single coherent timeline. The Massei report fundamentalists will point to the Massei timeline which simply cannot be reconciled with the stomach contents evidence, but there are a variety of splinter theories that try to accommodate the real time of death none of which make much sense IMHO or have achieved much popularity.

 

[RWVBWL]

Francesco Sforza

I hope Frank is OK. He hasn't updated his blog since the 17th.

Hi El Buscador and others,
Have a look at this, Frank has emailed details of his visit to CBS News

"They jumped in 5 over me, they almost killed me. I'm alive because someone showed up and I managed to scream to call the Carabinieri [city police]...Then I had bruises everywhere, cuts on my arms and crooked ribs."

Link:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_...tml?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

I wonder if Mignini will be suing CBS News next?
This sounds just like the Daily Mail report of what happened to Patrick Lumumba when he was arrested.
How come the Daily Mail was never sued?

"There's a gang of criminals who can do anything and judges protect them. They can beat, insult, threat, frame, force people to accuse other people or even themselves, destroy evidence, create evidence."

I wonder if Frank Sfarzo is worried about getting sued also?

Yesterday, the New York based Committee To Protect Journalists wrote a letter to Italy's President Georgio Napolitano expressing concern about the continuing harassment of journalists covering the Knox case in Italy. The Committee complained that journalists had been threaten and harassed by police and prosecutors in Perugia for the past several years; the worst case being Sfarzo's.
<snip>
Nina Ognianova, from the Committee, told Crimesider that their investigation into all of this began in February when they got an e-mail tip. The Committee did its own independent investigation in Italy.

Interesting...

 

[Draca]

Trying to piece things together still. Would most agree that this would be a fair representation of the "Innocent" Timeline? Any mistakes or issues where it doesn't match known fact? I am planning a "Guilty" one too so at the moment just trying to piece togther when things occured based on the innocence claims.

18:15 – 18:30
18:00
Dinner at Robyn and Amy’s house:
Robyn – perhaps around 6:00
Amy – 5:30 - 6:00
Sophie – “without time to clarify where the four friends had begun to eat”

• Meredith and her friends start eating dinner, Pizza.

19:30

• Rudy leaves home

19:53
19:51 - 53

• Rudy arrives at Cottage, watches to see if anyone is home.

(Could he open have Filomena’s shutters at this point?)

20:00 - 20:15
(Ruby leaves, where does he go? Why?)
He goes for a kebab

20:22
20:20 - 20:22

• Rudy returns to cottage. (Does he have the rock now?)

20:30-20:50

• Rudy opens Filomena’s Shutters, either from the front of the house, leaning out to the window, or by climbing the boy’s window grill. (if not already done.)
• Rudy breaks window with rock, watches for signs of occupancy
• Rock enters via window, hitting inner shutter, and is deflected down and to the left into a bag of clothing that subsequently falls over.
• Rudy climbs to window (from the house front? Marks consistent with this appear in photos, did anyone ever try asnd see if this was possible?)
• Rudy removes the broken glass from the frame to allow access to the latch
• Rudy cleans right side of sill of glass, opens the window, and climbs through

20:45

• Movie finishes and Meredith and Sophie leave for home (which movie did they watch?)
  

20:50

• Rudy starts to search through Filomena’s room, and then heads to the bathroom to use it

21:05
20:51 - 20:53 p.m - MK arrives home, based on time image thought to be MK is caught on film.

20:56 - Meredith calls home but phone call is cut off

• Meredith arrives home

21:05-21:10

• Having heard Meredith return home, Rudy leaves bathroom without flushing and attempts to exit front door to avoid detection.

~ 21:10

• Meredith discovers Rudy, struggle insures

21:10 – 21:20

• Meredith and Rudy fight
• Rudy stabs Meredith several times, likely the first times are accidental, the last to shut her up
• Rudy panics and runs to the bathroom to get towels to stop the bleeding

(Somewhere here, he either decides to either sexually assault her or make it look like a sexual assault, removes jacket, rolls up t-shirt, rips off bra, and takes off her jeans, or is this later)
Yes, the jeans would be here

~21:30

• Meredith dies

21:30 – 21:40

• Rudy returns to bathroom in an attempt to clean off the blood, takes off shoe to clean pants. Get Meredith’s blood on door, light switch, sink, and other places.
• With no towels left in bathroom Rudy can’t dry his pants leg, gets blood on bathroom mat.

21:40 – 21:50

• Rudy returns to Meredith’s bedroom, moves her and covers her body with duvet
  Why do you say he moved Meredith?
  

(Removes jeans here?)
No. Earlier, with the assault

21:50 – 21:55

• Rudy takes cell phones, money, and leaves

22:00

• Rudy accidently (?) activates phone as he walks through park, the phone attempts to ring the first number, Abbey Bank.

A few changes

 

[Kaosium]

Can you cite for this, since that would be important based on that it would have had to have been transfered from Filomena's to Meredith's bedroom after the window was broken and there would seem to be few reasons to return there after staging a break in.

Rather, the presence of this small piece of glass in the victim’s room allows for another consideration. The itinerary that the phantom burglar would have taken, entering via the breaking of the window and window-pane, has already been mentioned: Romanelli’s room; the living room space crossed to go into the larger bathroom in which he left his sign of usage by not flushing; exit from the larger bathroom; another passage through the living room to go along the hall and enter into Meredith’s room.

If it were so, one is unable to comprehend how it was possible that a piece of glass was dragged from Romanelli’s room in various places and made to arrive in Meredith’s room. It is more logical to think that, after the simulation of the burglary and the breaking of the window, the person who did this went into Meredith’s room – to close the door and/or to cover her lifeless body with the duvet – and the glass fragment – which could have ended up, hypothetically, in a fold of the clothing being worn or in some other place – came to fall, or rather it came to be brought in Meredith’s room, into which, immediately after the breaking of the glass, it was carried by whoever broke that glass.

And:

Before leaving the house it is to be held that both went back into Meredith’s room, taking care not to put their feet in any of the splashes of blood that were present there, to take the mobile phones and they decided to cover Meredith’s body, which was almost completely nude, with a duvet and then they left, locking this room’s door with the key. It is likely, furthermore, that in returning to Meredith’s room at that point, one of the little pieces of glass from the broken window ended up, inadvertently, in that room, where it was later found, as has been recounted.

 

[Chris C]

Massei Page 410:
Before leaving the house it is to be held that both went back into Meredith’s room, taking care not to put their feet in any of the splashes of blood that were present there, to take the mobile phones and they decided to cover Meredith’s body, which was almost completely nude, with a duvet and then they left, locking this room’s door with the key. It is likely, furthermore, that in returning to Meredith’s room at that point, one of the little pieces of glass from the broken window ended up, inadvertently, in that room, where it was later found, as has been recounted.

Of course doesn't the prosecution claim that the piece of glass is what caused the defensive cuts on Meredith's hands.

 

[Kaosium]

21:10 – 21:20

• Meredith and Rudy fight
• Rudy stabs Meredith several times, likely the first times are accidental, the last to shut her up
• Rudy panics and runs to the bathroom to get towels to stop the bleeding

(Somewhere here, he either decides to either sexually assault her or make it look like a sexual assault, removes jacket, rolls up t-shirt, rips off bra, and takes off her jeans, or is this later)

Very interesting work, but I don't understand this at all. Why would Rudy attempt to try to make it look like a sexual assault? I've not heard that one before. Sex-murders, as I recall, are punished more severely and allow expanded police powers in Italy.