Merged Silver Over 40.00 / Real and fake prices

[michaelsuede]

Again, there is no issue there. You just have to understand that you are actually buying. Also there are plenty of index ETF's and other types of ETF's that aren't setup the same way that GLD is. ETF's in general are very useful.

Yeah, useful at making suckers out of people.

 

[Aoidoi]

Why would one, having hit upon a foolproof investment scheme in metals, announce said scheme to the world? It seems... counterproductive.

Unless one were intending to drive the price of said commodities higher by convincing others to invest. In which case the announcement of such a foolproof scheme is simply marketing intending to inflate the value of your holdings by convincing other people to invest.

 

[timhau]

Why would one, having hit upon a foolproof investment scheme in metals, announce said scheme to the world? It seems... counterproductive.

Not necessarily. Maybe it's different this time: This time you can really get rich by copying what everyone else is doing. It almost worked 11 years ago, and we can safely assume things will go better now.

 

[michaelsuede]

Why would one, having hit upon a foolproof investment scheme in metals, announce said scheme to the world? It seems... counterproductive.

Unless one were intending to drive the price of said commodities higher by convincing others to invest. In which case the announcement of such a foolproof scheme is simply marketing intending to inflate the value of your holdings by convincing other people to invest.

Perhaps its because I don't like to watch a society collapse like Zimbabwe?

Contrary to popular belief, there are still many people in society who value human life and freedom.

Nothing would make me happier than to lose my ass on my silver holdings. Because the only way that will happen is if the Fed and Congress start acting like adults.

Since it can be pretty much assumed that the Fed and Congress will never act like adults, we know historically that precious metals will become the only method of wealth storage.

 

[NewtonTrino]

Yeah, useful at making suckers out of people.

So just to be clear in your head *ALL* ETF's are for suckers?

If that's actually your opinion then we really have nothing further to discuss and I'll simply add you to my (empty) ignore list.

 

[Aoidoi]

Perhaps its because I don't like to watch a society collapse like Zimbabwe?

Contrary to popular belief, there are still many people in society who value human life and freedom.

Nothing would make me happier than to lose my ass on my silver holdings. Because the only way that will happen is if the Fed and Congress start acting like adults.

Since it can be pretty much assumed that the Fed and Congress will never act like adults, we know historically that precious metals will become the only method of wealth storage.

Ah, it's a public service announcement. You are simply behaving altruistically while arguing with complete strangers on the internet about your investment strategy. How silly of me not to realize.

 

[michaelsuede]

Ah, it's a public service announcement. You are simply behaving altruistically while arguing with complete strangers on the internet about your investment strategy. How silly of me not to realize.

Pretty much.

I'd rather have my money invested in something productive, like agriculture or industrial production.

Unfortunately, because government has so grossly distorted those markets, the only safe place left is precious metals.

During a hyper-inflationary scenario, commodities always outperform equities.

Further, during a currency failure, metals become the de facto currency.

 

[timhau]

Further, during a currency failure, metals become the de facto currency.

And we know this, because ... ?

 

[michaelsuede]

And we know this, because ... ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ubJp6rmUYM

 

[michaelsuede]

silver broke 44 today.

Let's see.

10% gain in 10 days

 

[mhaze]

Again, there is no issue there. You just have to understand that you are actually buying. Also there are plenty of index ETF's and other types of ETF's that aren't setup the same way that GLD is. ETF's in general are very useful.

Nice, you start by not answering the question, then reframe the question, then misdirect, then generalize.

No...wait....

 

[zooterkin]

silver broke 44 today.

Let's see.

10% gain in 10 days

Over 300% in a year?

 

[Francesca R]

So just to be clear in your head *ALL* ETF's are for suckers?

Pretty much.

I should perhaps have held off outlining why it was internally inconsistent for goldbugs to trade ETFs because I'm not convinced anyone of that persuasion actually knew.

I'd rather have my money invested in something productive, like agriculture or industrial production.

I am wondering exactly what would be safe for you to invest in given your strictures about synthetic asset creation. Certainly you shouldn't hold shares or bonds, in anything. Currency trades are a no-no. Real estate was corrupted by REITS even before derivatives came along. Infrastructure is a government program (Hell, no!).

I think you are limited to farmland (avoid buildings) and commodities for which you've taken delivery. Everything else is susceptible to synthetic longs and shorts and the creation of asset and liability value out of thin air.

But wait a minute: Just because you might hold actual gold or silver, its price is still surely corrupted (per your taxonomy) by the presence of derivatives investors: borrowing it to sell it, or lending amounts that they don't have, and creating obligations out of thin air (Ponzi scheme according to yourself, I believe). On what basis should silver or gold act as a store of value (to you) given this?

And if you just believe that it just is, then what's the reason not to apply the same logic to currency? Or ETFs? Or any instrument?

So . . . . what's the logic again?

 

[michaelsuede]

I should perhaps have held off outlining why it was internally inconsistent for goldbugs to trade ETFs because I'm not convinced anyone of that persuasion actually knew.

I am wondering exactly what would be safe for you to invest in given your strictures about synthetic asset creation. Certainly you shouldn't hold shares or bonds, in anything. Currency trades are a no-no. Real estate was corrupted by REITS even before derivatives came along. Infrastructure is a government program (Hell, no!).

I think you are limited to farmland (avoid buildings) and commodities for which you've taken delivery. Everything else is susceptible to synthetic longs and shorts and the creation of asset and liability value out of thin air.

But wait a minute: Just because you might hold actual gold or silver, its price is still surely corrupted (per your taxonomy) by the presence of derivatives investors: borrowing it to sell it, or lending amounts that they don't have, and creating obligations out of thin air (Ponzi scheme according to yourself, I believe). On what basis should silver or gold act as a store of value (to you) given this?

And if you just believe that it just is, then what's the reason not to apply the same logic to currency? Or ETFs? Or any instrument?

So . . . . what's the logic again?

There is nothing inherently wrong with private debt products or shares of ownership.

There is everything wrong with fraud.

If people are clearly informed about what the product represents then there is no fraud. But I am sure that 99% of people buying the metals ETFs have no idea what they are getting into.

The SLV ETF for example automatically puts any silver purchased by one investor back into an inventory pool where another investor can buy that same piece of silver.

Jeff Nielson explains the inventory fraud in a nice article here:
http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_08/nielson070110.html

More info in this recent video by The Weekly Telegram:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-dBQd16cvg

1. The SLV ETF may not be redeemable in an “emergency” (such as a currency crisis, market crash, terrorist attack).

2. NO ONE IS RESPONSIBLE for the quality/purity of the silver held by the trust.

3. If someone owns 75% of SLV, they can terminate the trust (if government or a hedge fund bought up the SLV they could terminate it).

4. If the SEC determines the trust is an investment company, they can terminate the trust.

5. If the CFTC determines the SLV is a commodity pool, they can terminate the trust.

6. If you want to get your physical silver out of the trust, they can require you to first pay taxes on your holdings before you can get your physical silver out of the trust. So this means if you made a tremendous profit, you have to cough up the tax dough on your own, without being able to sell the silver to get money to pay the taxes.

 

[michaelsuede]

silver just broke 45 today.

40 to 45 in 11 days.

 

[lomiller]

There is nothing inherently wrong with private debt products or shares of ownership.

There is everything wrong with fraud.

If people are clearly informed about what the product represents then there is no fraud. But I am sure that 99% of people buying the metals ETFs have no idea what they are getting into.
.

If you don’t understand the what you are buying you shouldn’t play. This is true even in a market that has strong regulation to protect buyers. I find it ironic that someone like yourself who advocates complete deregulation would complain that current regulation is insufficient.

 

[michaelsuede]

If you don’t understand the what you are buying you shouldn’t play. This is true even in a market that has strong regulation to protect buyers. I find it ironic that someone like yourself who advocates complete deregulation would complain that current regulation is insufficient.

Deregulation would solve the problem of products like the SLV.

1. People assume the SEC and CFTC have done the vetting for them.

2. People assume the government will bail them out if there is a problem.

3. People assume the banks which manage the trust are covered by the FDIC and are regulated by the SEC which audits the trust.

Those assumptions are obviously wrong.

In a real free market, the SLV might still exist as a fraudulent entity, but it would only be filled with participants who understood the risks involved. The very existence of the SEC encourages participation is high risk products like the SLV by people who don't know any better.

I never said the SLV and similar products should be banned, I said they were junk high risk products. There is a difference between hating the fraud and wanting something banned by the State.

The State has no business regulating the markets at all.

 

[michaelsuede]

Speaking of SLV:

SLV Is Now "Hard To Borrow" At Goldman

And now for the latest news in the silver meltup: SLV just moved to Hard To Borrow status at Goldman Sachs. This pertains to institutionals who are Goldman Prime Broker clients. Soon coming to every prime broker near you. Comex margin hike imminent now that it is impossible to short the largest silver ETF in the world.

Praise Mao, and may SLV reign supreme 4eva

 

[Francesca R]

silver just broke 45 today.

I never said the SLV and similar products should be banned, I said they were junk high risk products. There is a difference between hating the fraud [ . . . ]

How do you reconcile "junk high risk products" containing "fraud" with "silver just broke 45 today."?

Since SLV is pegged to the physical price (check it), how can one (the price) be fine with you if the other (the ETF price) is not? And if the ETF price is fine too, what's exactly wrong with it?

Bear in mind that people long of it hardly want the physical metal; they want a price gain.

 

[lomiller]

Deregulation would solve the problem of products like the SLV.

1. People assume the SEC and CFTC have done the vetting for them.

2. People assume the government will bail them out if there is a problem.

3. People assume the banks which manage the trust are covered by the FDIC and are regulated by the SEC which audits the trust.

Those assumptions are obviously wrong.

Why would anyone assume anything in their investing?

At the very least an investor should be paying for advice if they don’t fully understand the investment themselves, but as we have seen that doesn’t work when the company selling the advice can make a profit selling bad advice. At the end of the day if you invest your money you need to take some personal responsibility for it, why do you object to this?