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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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The Micheli report said Meredith was wearing her bra for some time after her death. He said the imprint of her bra strap and right shoulder are in the pool of dried blood under her body indicating she had lain for some time in that position with her bra still on. He also said there were no blood spatter marks on the breasts which would have been covered by the cups, only between the cups and above. IIRC, her legs also had no blood on them indicating her jeans were removed after death. Perhaps Charlie can confirm that one as he's the only one I know who has autopsy photos (IIRC).


I have never understood how Micheli came to the conclusion that he did after looking at the photographs. The blood droplets on Meredith's body are clearly visible leaving absolutely no doubt that she was still breathing when her breasts were exposed.

There was no staging, no one came back later to move the body. Guede moved Meredith a few feet out of the pool of blood to sexually assault her. The blood evidence on the floor is consistent with this scenario. Ron Hendry's analysis details the blood patterns on the floor showing how the body was moved.

The blood evidence on the duvet was misrepresented by the prosecution in order to insinuate staging. The prosecution claimed the duvet was placed over Meredith long after she died because there was no blood transfer. Photos taken at the crime scene show significant blood transfer on the duvet suggesting that Meredith was covered shortly after the attack.
 
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______________________

Danceme,

Apparently, sometime between the Micheli Report and the Massei Report someone discovered that that imprint was caused by something other than the bra strap. Right? I wonder what caused that imprint? A T-shirt?

///

Thanks Fine, I hadn't come across that theory before. Who worked that one out, the defense team or one of the internet sleuths?

I tend to think that if the Massei report totally fails to mention this claimed trail of glass then it's almost certainly a guilter fabrication. It might be a fun side project to run this one to earth and see where it originated, but I'd be comfortable betting that it isn't going to turn out to have any reasonable basis.

I haven't seen that before, on any forum, but I don't read PMF much so perhaps it was there you saw it.


Charlie confirmed she did have droplets of blood on her breasts within the last 2 or 3 weeks here on this thread.

Yes, I do remember Charlie saying that. I imagine Micheli saw the autopsy photos too yet he seemed to think otherwise.
 
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Can anyone help with this too. When was this picture taken?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/155794dacc5ab83ad6.jpg

It's a cropped part of this image


I had a bit of fun with that some time ago. There is a poorly lit photo of that mark that was taken in the police station when Amanda was arrested. I had talked about that photo and at the same time posted a reference image for a hickey (see image 4 of 5 here) with the comment: "here is what Amanda's hickey looked like after 5 days". Apparently the group at PMF thought the reference mark was so similar to the one on Amanda that they accepted the photo as being Amanda. :boxedin:


ETA: Google is no longer finding my cropped image on PMF so either the wised up and removed it or access is restricted.
 
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I personally find it to be the most convincing piece of evidence against Amanda, out of all of it (or all of the none of it) and to be glossed over. I can easily imagine a room full of interrogators staring at it and getting angrier by the minute.

You find the hickie to be the most convincing piece? What does it convince you of? Though I doubt by the time the interrogators arrived days later the hickie was all that noticable.
 
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Okay, so I guess that clears up the blood on the body issue as far as I'm willing to take it (looking at pictures of dead bodies is not my thing, so I'm happy to leave that to others.) That certainly throws the whole "They came back and staged the scene" claims out the window. The prosecution's story is getting less and less consistant with the evidence available.

I haven't seen that before, on any forum, but I don't read PMF much so perhaps it was there you saw it.

I found it on the TJMK blogg site. It was posted by FinnMacCool:

Later investigation showed traces of glass from the window led from Filomena’s room, along the hall, and out to the front door. No such traces were found in the murder room itself. All of this suggests that whoever broke the window did NOT subsequently go into the victim’s room, but DID just walk straight out through the front door.

<snip>

But forensic examination did show a trace of Knox’s DNA, mixed with the victim’s blood. In the room where the botched staging took place. (And, as we noted above, whoever broke the window seems to have gone from Filomena’s room straight out of the front door, shedding tiny particles of broken glass as they went.)

On the photo, thanks for the answers. Can anyone confirm that Amanda claimed to have washed her hair when she showered and then used Filomena's hair dryer that morning?
 
12. A luminol-positive blob was found in Filomena's room, but luminol is a presumptive test for blood, not a conclusive one. There were also about fifteen luminol-positive areas at Raffaele's flat, none of which are related to the crime. I am not 100% certain about this blob, but I believe that most or all of the luminol stains that had DNA were checked with TMB, and the TMB tests for blood were always negative. My conclusion is that one cannot conclude that the blob is blood.

Sorry if this looks like I'm going backwards, still trying to fight my way through both sides and there is a heap of stuff to get through and determine what is real and what is whole cloth, so sometimes I'm going to have to backtrack a little to satisfy myself of where the truth of a topic lies.

The Micheli Report states that:

Bloody footprints made visible with luminol in Filomena’s room contain Meredith’s DNA.

Thus I'm a little confused over the "footprints" vs Blob, and wondered if these prints were prints that showed up besides the blob that had Amanda's DNA, and what proof there was, other than the luminol, that this was in fact blood.
 
9) What did Amanda tell Filomena when she rang at 12:08pm the day after the murder?

It would seem that Amanda and Filomena have different versions of what was said. It would seem strange that Amanda would say she had to ring Raffaele to come over when she had already returned to his place previously after having showered, why didn't she just ask him to return with her then?

Everything that Amanda and Filomena said that day is hearsay, influenced by forgetfulness and misinterpretation. When their stories don't match, it's not necessarily intentional, lying or even a big deal. The important thing to keep in mind is that Filomena does not have more credibility than Amanda.
 
Micheli on Bra Removal and staging

The Micheli report said Meredith was wearing her bra for some time after her death. He said the imprint of her bra strap and right shoulder are in the pool of dried blood under her body indicating she had lain for some time in that position with her bra still on. He also said there were no blood spatter marks on the breasts which would have been covered by the cups, only between the cups and above.
IIRC, her legs also had no blood on them indicating her jeans were removed after death. Perhaps Charlie can confirm that one as he's the only one I know who has autopsy photos (IIRC).

Micheli Report
The same state of the corpse shows signs of changing the original. Taking up the report of the coronerconsultants defense K.[Amanda Knox], it is recorded that the body of M[Meredith Kercher]. occur "minute specks pinpoint the anterior chest, undoubtedly originated from the source of bleeding in the neck (their size suggests that they have been screened for activity in respiratory airways blocked with blood). Their appearance (small and round) tells us that they were projected upwards to the victim substantially supine (face up) to fall, then, on her chest "; similar spots there are in the upper chest, blanket evidently by the T-shirt rolled up, so "when those spots were produced was not wearing a bra: there is no shielding wrought by this garment, and the droplets smear skin regions that originally they were covered. We can not agree with the assumption just mentioned.

SUPPORTING BODY WAS MOVED AFTER MEREDITH WAS DEAD:
The bra, and the finding is objective, resale was a few inches away from the girl's[Meredith] right foot in an area from blood drawn at all, yet it is thoroughly soaked right shoulder strap, also, incidentally, the couple was seen with absolute evidence the same kind of pinpoint spots found on the torso. This means that the victim had rolled up her shirt to ensure her neck when she was struck (as we shall see, this is an empirical observation of fundamental importance to give a sexual nature, aggression), otherwise you would not see the spots on either the skin or on the bra, but the latter had regularly wearing. Photos nos. 268 and 770, fully illustrated by the defense of G[Rudy Guede], then clearly show the signs of that piece of underwear (one vertical strip, rather sharp) and on the body of the young woman on the floor below: a further demonstration that the bra was removed after that the blood had been able to affect the shoulder strap for an appreciable time, precisely that which appears when the discovery soaked.

Finally and most importantly, do not forget that the shirt the girl[Meredith] was certainly drawn up, until you discover the entire torso and bra (otherwise there would be blood stains point), and where he never saw a thief or a robber who, just to look at the clothes of someone who wants to rob, he starts stripping his victim, if it is still animated by the desire to take advantage of sexually?


First Micheli describes the defense view that there were aspirated blood spots on her breasts because she was lying on her back and aspirating blood that lands on her chest. He DOES NOT DENY that these blood drops exist, he instead rejects the defense view on how they got there. He largely rejects this because the one bra strap was especially bloody. He doesn’t believe the blood ran to the side while she was aspirating blood straight up (Or as I believe - soaked all the way through her blue jacket to the bra strap), but instead thinks she must have been lying on the bra for a long time.

He instead says Meredith rolled her own t-shirt up to protect her neck after she was stabbed. He explains that the t-shirt protected getting blood stains on the torso.

I don’t understand how he is saying there were blood spots on the chest where the bra would have been? Can anyone explain his thoughts on this?

Anway, whatever Micheli is saying here, the Massei Report doesn't share his reasoning. So its moot.
 
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Massei on Bra being cut off

Massei Pg 374
In relation to the preceding (Raffaele Sollecito actively present at the scene of the murder, finding himself behind Meredith, pulling on the bra with violence, finally deciding to cut it), it must be affirmed that Raffaele Sollecito not only found himself at the scene of the murder and pursuing, with violence, the same objective as Rudy Guede, but he is there with a well-sharpened knife.

Elements which lead one to consider that the 4cm in depth wound was inflicted by Raffaele Sollecito with the pocket knife that he was always carrying around with him, and was inflicted immediately after having cut the bra, while Rudy penetrated the unfortunate victim – who had been almost completely stripped naked – probably with his fingers because the biological trace on the vaginal swab did not present anything of a spermatic nature.

That the knife used by Raffaele Sollecito on that occasion, according to what has been said, has not been found, is an irrelevant circumstance when it is a case of blade weapons [arma bianca] of easy availability and easy enough to conceal (cf. on this specific point, Cassation 30 June 2004, no 48349).

The very loud scream (as described by Maria Ilaria Dramis) of pain and, at this point, also of terror, made by Meredith and of which it was said, not causing any repentance among the attackers, but the final definitive progression of violence, and while her already-cut bra was being removed (the bra that, coming into contact with the part of the body that had begun to be covered in blood from the wound in the neck, itself became partially stained with blood), the hand of one of the attackers sealed Meredith’s mouth, so that she could not scream again, and another of her attackers struck her again on the neck, but on the left side because, probably, they were on the other side with respect to the person who had inflicted the 4cm deep wound, causing [in their turn] a lesion 8cm deep. Meredith tried to withdraw the part of her body that was once again and more deeply attainted but, held by the hand of whoever was holding her mouth shut and countered by the presence of the one who had caused the 4cm-deep wound, she ended up being driven back towards the knife that still remained in the wound itself, and occasioned a second incision on the epiglottis, as has been seen, almost as if it were [a case of] a second blow being inflicted upon her.

This dynamic requires the presence of a second attacker, of a second knife. This Court holds that the second attacker is Amanda Knox.


Poor Raffaele. First Massei says he cut the back strap of the bra, on a bra that was NEVER CUT, with his own knife. Then Massei has him stabbing Meredith with the same knife. Why? Well because he owns a knife - no further proof needed. They don't need to have found his guilty knife, or prove he used it, it is enough to know he owns one.

Massei has Meredith still alive fighting and screaming after the bra is removed. So, no need to mention Micheli's staging any longer. Massei doesn't explain well why there isn't more blood on Meredith if she is still fighting with the bra removed..... Her entire chest and torso should be covered in blood in this scenario in my opinion.

Finally, they gotta get Amanda in there somehow to give the final blow with the kitchen knife. You know, the one that tested negative for blood.

I get more outraged by this case the further I fall into this rabbit hole. It's just such crap. I mean really.
 
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Sorry if this looks like I'm going backwards, still trying to fight my way through both sides and there is a heap of stuff to get through and determine what is real and what is whole cloth, so sometimes I'm going to have to backtrack a little to satisfy myself of where the truth of a topic lies.

The Micheli Report states that:



Thus I'm a little confused over the "footprints" vs Blob, and wondered if these prints were prints that showed up besides the blob that had Amanda's DNA, and what proof there was, other than the luminol, that this was in fact blood.

The problem with the blob/footprint theory in Filomena's room, is how did it get there without leaving a trail all the way there. For one, Guede's footprints wasn't cleaned up so Knox/Sollecito obviously didn't clean up the floor. And two, how would they manage to clean up the footprints on the way to filomena's room perfectly and yet fail to clean up the footprints leading from the bathroom and in filomena's room. Which then leaves a curious thought, how did the blob even get in the room to begin with and is the blob even connected to the murder. Which also leads down the path of if the blob in filomena's room isn't connected to the murder, then does that mean its possible the other luminol prints are unrelated.

Though I have often wondered, did they use liminol around the other bathroom and in Laura's room?
 
The problem with the blob/footprint theory in Filomena's room, is how did it get there without leaving a trail all the way there. For one, Guede's footprints wasn't cleaned up so Knox/Sollecito obviously didn't clean up the floor. And two, how would they manage to clean up the footprints on the way to filomena's room perfectly and yet fail to clean up the footprints leading from the bathroom and in filomena's room. Which then leaves a curious thought, how did the blob even get in the room to begin with and is the blob even connected to the murder. Which also leads down the path of if the blob in filomena's room isn't connected to the murder, then does that mean its possible the other luminol prints are unrelated.

Though I have often wondered, did they use liminol around the other bathroom and in Laura's room?

Has anyone ever done a floorplan to show where all of the "footprints" were found?
 
Has anyone ever done a floorplan to show where all of the "footprints" were found?

Someone uploaded this plan to Wikipedia:

Floor plan with evidence marked (very large image) ETA: oops, it's the same image Rose posted while I was writing the post.

Only the luminol blobs from Filomena's room are missing. Apparently ILE didn't manage to photograph those.


If I recall correctly:

rep. L6-L7 - one unrecognized footprint, one claimed to be Sollecito's, defence expert says it's woman's size

rep L9 - corridor, footprint facing Meredith's door

rep L5 - claimed to be Amanda's, in her room, her DNA found

rep L8 - unidentified shoeprint, corridor - DNA of Amanda and of victim
 
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This one is bigger:

In Italy, journalists threatened for reporting on murder - open letter from Committee to Protect Journalists

Frank Sfarzo's ordeal in the hands of Perugian cops described in disturbing details, along with long list of Mignini's attacks on the journalists.

Your Excellency, we are urging you to ensure that reporters and writers are not afraid to cover, comment on, and criticize the activities of Perugia authorities. This is particularly pressing now that the appeal of two defendants in the Kercher murder case goes on at a local court.

We ask you to ensure that the politically motivated lawsuit against Perugia blogger Frank Sfarzo is immediately scrapped and that outside investigators are assigned to conduct an investigation into the September 28-29, 2010, abusive actions of Squadra Mobile officers against him.
 
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This one is bigger:

In Italy, journalists threatened for reporting on murder - open letter from Committee to Protect Journalists

Frank Sfarzo's ordeal in the hands of Perugian cops described in disturbing details, along with long list of Mignini's attacks on the journalists.

Your Excellency, we are urging you to ensure that reporters and writers are not afraid to cover, comment on, and criticize the activities of Perugia authorities. This is particularly pressing now that the appeal of two defendants in the Kercher murder case goes on at a local court.

We ask you to ensure that the politically motivated lawsuit against Perugia blogger Frank Sfarzo is immediately scrapped and that outside investigators are assigned to conduct an investigation into the September 28-29, 2010, abusive actions of Squadra Mobile officers against him.

Yes, that is very big news. Wow.
 
This one is bigger:

In Italy, journalists threatened for reporting on murder - open letter from Committee to Protect Journalists

Frank Sfarzo's ordeal in the hands of Perugian cops described in disturbing details, along with long list of Mignini's attacks on the journalists.

Your Excellency, we are urging you to ensure that reporters and writers are not afraid to cover, comment on, and criticize the activities of Perugia authorities. This is particularly pressing now that the appeal of two defendants in the Kercher murder case goes on at a local court.

We ask you to ensure that the politically motivated lawsuit against Perugia blogger Frank Sfarzo is immediately scrapped and that outside investigators are assigned to conduct an investigation into the September 28-29, 2010, abusive actions of Squadra Mobile officers against him.

This is very good for Frank! He needs it to be addressed before May as he needs the pressure on the judges so Mignini does not get away with it again.
 
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