Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

[JWideman]

You may not. The older I get the more I like the idea of GPS/location-based speed limiters being mandatory.



Why? (feel different if the dom was a teenager)



I guess you have more faith in human nature than I do.

1. But do you think we should raise the driving age, or require under-18 drivers to be with an adult? More importantly, do most people think this? It would seem otherwise.

2. Being a dom requires a lot of maturity. It's not about beating someone up to get off, it's about pushing someone to their limits. It's rare than a young man in his 20s can handle it. A teenaged boy would be rarer still.

3. Nonsequitor. What does human nature or my faith in it have to do with it? This dom hung her from her nipples and she didn't suffer serious injury. Either he knows what he's doing, or she's lucky as hell.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I suppose nobody brought up Stanford because it isn't really applicable. Does BDSM play get 'totally out of control' in that way on a regular basis? Not in my experience, nor that of the other experienced posters here. Nor in the gutter press, where you'd perhaps expect to see the occasional anomaly inflated to become an epidemic of deadly perverts.

Most child abuse and rape isn't reported either. I don't think we can conclude that just because our personal experiences do not include unfortunate events and/or such events are not reported in the press very often that such events don't occur far more frequently.

Having no direct experience of BDSM I have some questions:

Do safe words get used much?

How does the dom know how far and long to go?

Is the dom just carrying out the pre-specified orders of the sub, or does the dom have flexibility in the type and degree of punishments he or she inflicts?

She gave legal consent, she is of legal age - perhaps you think the bar should be set higher, for specific sorts of sexuality. That was legally the case for homosexuality in the UK for a while, and may still be elsewhere. Of course, I'm not arguing for a blanket acceptance of all forms of sexuality - proponents of bestiality can fight their own battle - but I am curious how you feel about homosexuality. At the risk of sparking an entirely different debate, I understand man-on-man action is inherently riskier than straight sex. Even more, I'd wager, than the kinky stuff. Perhaps we need a sliding scale - at what age are homosexual submissive males able to consent to a sound thrashing, would you say?

I posted earlier that I think that both the absolute and relative ages of both partners should be taken into account, with the relative age becoming less important as the age of the youngest partner increases. I also think sexual behaviour could be split up into broad categories with different repercussions for the older partner if a complaint is made by either the younger partner or their legal guardian.

Her mother complained. Or did I miss the post where we moved from discussing the OP to just inventing scenarios we can object to and implying they have some relevance to the OP?

The relevance is the belief that "she was asking for it" many people hold when women complain after the fact that a partner went too far. If another 16 year old engaged in exactly the same behaviour as this woman did but complained afterwards about the bruising and/or any other injuries, should she just chalk it up to experience?

As soon as they sign up for it, it isn't abuse.

I don't think it's as simple as that.

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

This dom hung her from her nipples and she didn't suffer serious injury. Either he knows what he's doing, or she's lucky as hell.

Actually she's had tin nipples ever since Korea.

/Lloyd Bridges.

 

[tesscaline]

3. Nonsequitor. What does human nature or my faith in it have to do with it? This dom hung her from her nipples and she didn't suffer serious injury. Either he knows what he's doing, or she's lucky as hell.

Point of clarification, he didn't hang her from her nipples. He simply restrained her by her nipples in an uncomfortable tip-toe position. That's not quite hanging, as she could still touch the floor. Still dangerous, if there were not safeties in place for if she lost her footing, but not quite the same as being hung by one's nipples

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

1. But do you think we should raise the driving age, or require under-18 drivers to be with an adult? More importantly, do most people think this? It would seem otherwise.

I think a reasonable case could be made for the legal driving age to be raised, or for other measures to mange the risks associated with human factors.

2. Being a dom requires a lot of maturity. It's not about beating someone up to get off, it's about pushing someone to their limits. It's rare than a young man in his 20s can handle it. A teenaged boy would be rarer still.

Yet a teenage girl can handle being a sub? It would seem reasonable to assume a similar level of maturity would be required from both participants in a role-playing sexual fantasy.

3. Nonsequitor. What does human nature or my faith in it have to do with it? This dom hung her from her nipples and she didn't suffer serious injury. Either he knows what he's doing, or she's lucky as hell.

If the role-play is "on the edge" then I think it's only a matter of time before the line is crossed.

 

[tesscaline]

Yet a teenage girl can handle being a sub? It would seem reasonable to assume a similar level of maturity would be required from both participants in a role-playing sexual fantasy.

You assume it's role-play. Why?

If the role-play is "on the edge" then I think it's only a matter of time before the line is crossed.

Why? What line, exactly? What evidence do you have of the inevitability of it's being crossed?

 

[Jekyll's Guest]

If the role-play is "on the edge" then I think it's only a matter of time before the line is crossed.

Warning: slipper slope ahead!

 

[JFrankA]

Yet a teenage girl can handle being a sub? It would seem reasonable to assume a similar level of maturity would be required from both participants in a role-playing sexual fantasy.

Could a teen-age boy handle being a football hero? Could a sixteen year old handle driving a sports car? Could a teenager handle an "R" rated movie? Could a teen-ager handle one beer? Could a teen-ager handle a violent video game?

All these answers are the same: depends on the teen-ager, their experiences and guide in life and their guides through the particular thing they are exploring.

Having no direct experience of BDSM I have some questions:

I'll be happy to answer these questions based on my experiences as a Dom.

Do safe words get used much?

At first, when the relationship is being built, and as a couple get to know one another, the answer is yes. But it is a learning process. It would be the same thing as when a couple has vanilla sex with each other for the first few times and one person says "No, I don't like my ear being licked", for example.

As the couple get to know one another and understand each other and how they "tick" the safe word is used less and less.
How does the dom know how far and long to go?

Is the dom just carrying out the pre-specified orders of the sub, or does the dom have flexibility in the type and degree of punishments he or she inflicts?

Hey!!!! Capitalize that "D" when you say "Dom"!!!!!!

That would depend on the sub, the situation, the limits, the fantasy involved.

For example, my girlfriend loves being spanked, but hates any kind of foot play. So no matter how much I "punish" her, I would never ever ever touch her feet. Even if we have vanilla sex, even though I am the Dom, I wouldn't even come close to touching her feet, ever.

I explain the Dom/sub relationship like this:

We are both in a car, both going to the same location together. I am driving but she holds the map. I know the route and she guides me what streets to take. However, I have the power to drive off the map and follow a road she doesn't expect. The trade off having this ability to drive off the map is that she trusts me that I know where I am going, I know the streets I'm going down, I am still heading in the right direction and most of all, I am still able to get us to our destination safely.

Because if I do anything that hurts the car, or I get lost, etc, neither one of us gets to our destination and we both suffer.

 

[bookitty]

One final point. I would have invited my daughter's new friend around for tea but if he'd turned out to be a good Dom there's a strong chance I would have stolen him, if he'd been willing to take on cougars. Now that my daughter might have something to say about!

As it is, I think any parent who couldn't deal with the scenario in the OP without resorting to the law demonstrates a lack of capability in carrying out their parental responsibilities.

I think that might mess up a 16 year old more than acting out a well-planned and scripted sexual fantasy.

If I were to find out that my niece had engaged in BDSM sex that left bruises and welts, my first reaction would be extremely emotional. Someone physically harmed her, it would take a few moments for the "because she wanted them to" aspects to sink in.

After I calmed down, we could go forward with damage control, making sure she was informed, making sure she fully understood consent, and making sure that she was finding partners who would respect her boundaries, etc. At that point it's just advanced sex ed.

But, I have the advantage of knowing several pro doms. It's not my scene but it's not particularly scary. A parent who doesn't have this info could fill in the blanks with some pretty terrifying mental imagery. Calling the police would be a natural reaction to thinking your daughter had been harmed by a violent predator. Until they understand what the relationship involved, it would be difficult for them to understand that this wasn't the case.

 

[bookitty]

I completely agree, and I was not trying to equate consensual BDSM with rape. I was thinking more from the point of view of a person asked to judge whether a crime had been committed if the only thing different was that the young woman had complained about her treatment after the fact. How much physical abuse should a 16 year old person be able to sign up for?

Has anyone brought up the Stanford Prison Experiment? That was role play, everyone signed up to take part and the prisoners and guards were of a similar age to each other. It got totally out of control even though the prisoners could ask to leave at any time. Would such an experiment be considered ethical today?

If the young girl had complained after the fact, this would be an entirely different news story. It would also mean that the Dom had done something wrong. Either by pushing her boundaries too far or not recognizing unspoken reluctance. Since the girl did not complain, we can assume this was not the case.

If you're trying to say that the girl was in danger of acts beyond her boundaries, I will agree. Contacting a BDSM partner through the internet is risky behavior. I'd really rather that 16 year-olds didn't make a habit of that. But, in this specific case, the risk was rewarded with satisfactory sex play. It may not be what I would want for my kid but no one needs to be punished for it.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

You assume it's role-play. Why?

My conversation with a prostitute who offers BDSM services.

For example, she was once asked by a client to kick him in the head. She (sensibly) refused. If she had agreed to kick him in the head and it resulted in his death or serious injury, is the fact he asked her to do it a valid defence?

Why? What line, exactly? What evidence do you have of the inevitability of it's being crossed?

In general pain is a warning signal that physical damage is close to or actually being inflicted on the body. Those that get pleasure from experiencing pain are playing at the edge where a little bit more force or an unexpected movement could result in greater injury than one or both parties wanted to inflict. I don't think human judgement is so fine that the line between pleasurable pain and unpleasant pain is never crossed.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Warning: slipper slope ahead!

Well at least we know what your kink is now.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How does the dom know how far and long to go?

Some use a system of something akin to traffic lights. Saying "green" means the situation or sensation is very much wanted. "Yellow" may indicate it's not going in the right direction, but don't stop. "Red" being a safeword and stop now, something's gone wrong; we need to talk.

I'll be happy to answer these questions based on my experiences as a Dom.

Well said and I wanted to chime in but the length of this thread got a bit long for my time available so I was glad to see I didn't have to add much.

But I will expound a little to others that limits could even be presented as a list, with things someone enjoys, will do it but not particularly interested, things someone really doesn't want to but will, and things that are just off-limits, etc etc.

Actual contracts may be a part of it, too. In a way, this may have legal ramifications or at least put a bruise in context if the bruised has signed something that states they're aware and consenting.

I'd maybe like to add that the passenger in your car has the safety of being able to say "This is my stop, I'll get out now, thanks."

 

[tesscaline]

My conversation with a prostitute who offers BDSM services.

Are you extrapolating that single conversation to extend to the entirety of the BDSM community?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Are you extrapolating that single conversation to extend to the entirety of the BDSM community?

No and I see no reason for your question other than to delay or avoid answering mine.

 

[23_Tauri]

Indeed. If she was doing this with another teenager, I'd feel very different about it.

Why?

See my post #65. Because as a 30 year old he's more likely than a 16 year old boy to have experience of rope play etc. and know what he's doing. With the caveat that I would want to meet the man myself to find out for myself his experience as a Dom. No, not the way you're thinking, Tesscaline!

 

[23_Tauri]

I would have invited my daughter's new friend around for tea but if he'd turned out to be a good Dom there's a strong chance I would have stolen him

I think that might mess up a 16 year old more than acting out a well-planned and scripted sexual fantasy.

I agree. I was tongue in cheek, I promise. I wouldn't steal my daughter's boyfriend.

Or at least, I damn well hope I wouldn't!

But, I have the advantage of knowing several pro doms.

Yes, it does help in having a more level headed response and deeper understanding of the issue.

It's not my scene but it's not particularly scary. A parent who doesn't have this info could fill in the blanks with some pretty terrifying mental imagery. Calling the police would be a natural reaction to thinking your daughter had been harmed by a violent predator. Until they understand what the relationship involved, it would be difficult for them to understand that this wasn't the case.

Yes, I agree with this. But surely the mother taking the decision not to understand means she shirks her responsibility as a good parent? She clearly doesn't trust her daughter enough to believe her when she said that it was consensual and she was happy. Nor did she take this opportunity to face her own ignorance and prejudice and "learn something today". That's the tragedy IMO.

 

[bookitty]

I agree. I was tongue in cheek, I promise. I wouldn't steal my daughter's boyfriend.

Or at least, I damn well hope I wouldn't!


Yes, it does help in having a more level headed response and deeper understanding of the issue.


Sad, but true. But surely the mother taking the decision not to understand means she shirks her responsibility as a good parent? She clearly doesn't trust her daughter enough to believe her when she said that it was consensual and she was happy. Nor did she take this opportunity to face her own ignorance and prejudice and "learn something today". That's the tragedy IMO.

Maybe not. All we know is that in the moment she called the police. What conversations she has had with her daughter since are unknown. She may very well have gotten over the initial shock and is now more accepting.

 

[23_Tauri]

No and I see no reason for your question other than to delay or avoid answering mine.

So it's a single anecdote?

 

[23_Tauri]

Maybe not. All we know is that in the moment she called the police. What conversations she has had with her daughter since are unknown. She may very well have gotten over the initial shock and is now more accepting.

True. But it's too late for the guy. Perhaps the mother will stand up in the Hovrätt and tell the prosecutor that she now supports the defendant and doesn't want to see him punished. Perhaps....