RoseMontague
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The main one. Thanks.
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Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case
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The main one. Thanks.
Dan O.
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Did you miss my link to a much earlier conclusion that the bra was ripped off?
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2007/12/17/meredith-kercher-bra-clue-115875-20258423/
Before reading, note that it is dated December 17, 2007. This is the day before the police return to the cottage.
the bit about the clasp is a reporting error when compared to the original reports from three days earlier : )
Chris_Halkides
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the recording of Raffaele's call to the carabinieri
Draca and PhantomWolf,
There is highly indirect evidence also. Raffaele's call to the Caribinieri was played in court, and my recollection of descriptions of it is that he was speaking in a normal tone of voice. The Lifetime movie was quite fictitious in this regard. Also, the first thing that happened when the postals arrived is that A and R showed them around, so the fictitious* call would have had to happen after that.
*the call was real, but the notion that it happened after the postals arrived is fiction. MOO.
Draca and PhantomWolf,
There is highly indirect evidence also. Raffaele's call to the Caribinieri was played in court, and my recollection of descriptions of it is that he was speaking in a normal tone of voice. The Lifetime movie was quite fictitious in this regard. Also, the first thing that happened when the postals arrived is that A and R showed them around, so the fictitious* call would have had to happen after that.
*the call was real, but the notion that it happened after the postals arrived is fiction. MOO.
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Bruce Fischer
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Mirror wins!
Honestly. it just looks like another case of careless reporting. There were many examples of this in the first few weeks. Journalists added in a lot of speculation.
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Raffaele spoke in a normal tone and so did Amanda. Did the Lifetime movie show both of them making the phone call?
Chris_Halkides
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Memories, may be beautiful and yet...
Kestrel,
My memory is that Raffaele made it alone in a hushed tone, but memories are not like VCR recorders, as you have pointed out. RoseMontague has discussed this call just today on the Conspiracy thread.
Kestrel,
My memory is that Raffaele made it alone in a hushed tone, but memories are not like VCR recorders, as you have pointed out. RoseMontague has discussed this call just today on the Conspiracy thread.
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Draca
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I googled Meredith Kercher bra ripped torn for Nov - Dec 2007 and there are a lot of sources that say that; not that what they said means much. Both the prosecution and defense presented at trial that the bra was cut off though, at least the back if not the straps. I find it appalling; even more so for the defense.
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RWVBWL
Master Poster
Hi PhantomWolf,
As Mary H mentioned, I have read a bit about Alessandra Formica and so I dug up a few links to some of the postings that I have written about her:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5951148#post5951148
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5952411#post5952411
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5953339#post5953339
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=6820239#post6820239
There was some discussion about when Alessandra came forward to tell the police what she saw that night. I wondered might this be another 1 of the reasons that the cops arrested Patrick Lumumba, him being a black male and Amanda's boss, if Miss Formica had told them about her run in with a black male the night Meredith Kercher was brutally murdered.
I asked Frank Sfarzo if he knew was it before or after Mr. Lumumba was arrested that Miss Formica reported this. He said it was afterwards.
IIRC, eyewitness Alessandra Formica stated in court that the male she saw that night was not Rudy Guede. This adds another interesting twist to a strange murder case we discuss...
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5891801#post5891801
Hope this helps,
RW
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Draca
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aspirated blood on both bra and chest of MK
Her bra had aspirated blood marks on it and her chest where the bra would have been covering also had the same spots.
MK had to have been stabbed before her bra was removed. She was also still breathing after the bra was torn off her.
Additionally, her blue jacket would have needed to be removed and her long sleeve T-shirt pushed up before the aspirated blood would have landed on her bra. If she was standing there would have been a lot more than aspirtation marks on her bra and chest. It seems therefore, that she was lying on her back both when the bra was exposed and after it was removed.
Her bra had aspirated blood marks on it and her chest where the bra would have been covering also had the same spots.
MK had to have been stabbed before her bra was removed. She was also still breathing after the bra was torn off her.
Additionally, her blue jacket would have needed to be removed and her long sleeve T-shirt pushed up before the aspirated blood would have landed on her bra. If she was standing there would have been a lot more than aspirtation marks on her bra and chest. It seems therefore, that she was lying on her back both when the bra was exposed and after it was removed.
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Draca
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halides1,
That is just LOGIC though and NOT PROOF. This is Massei we're talking about after all.
Draca
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The Micheli report said Meredith was wearing her bra for some time after her death. He said the imprint of her bra strap and right shoulder are in the pool of dried blood under her body indicating she had lain for some time in that position with her bra still on. He also said there were no blood spatter marks on the breasts which would have been covered by the cups, only between the cups and above.
IIRC, her legs also had no blood on them indicating her jeans were removed after death. Perhaps Charlie can confirm that one as he's the only one I know who has autopsy photos (IIRC).
______________________
Danceme,
Apparently, sometime between the Micheli Report and the Massei Report someone discovered that that imprint was caused by something other than the bra strap. Right? I wonder what caused that imprint? A T-shirt?
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PhantomWolf
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Thanks everyone for the answers. It seems that there are still three that haven't been able to be fully resolved yet.
6) Claim was made that Meredith's bra was removed after her death because there was no blood where it would have been. I have also seen it claimed that as blood was found on her breast area, that it was removed before she died. Which is correct?
Danceme and Draca have competing claims here, both can't be true. This is important to establish as it is unlikely that Rudy would have been the bra remover if Meredith had been dead for some time prior to this action.
9) What did Amanda tell Filomena when she rang at 12:08pm the day after the murder?
It would seem that Amanda and Filomena have different versions of what was said. It would seem strange that Amanda would say she had to ring Raffaele to come over when she had already returned to his place previously after having showered, why didn't she just ask him to return with her then?
11) A claim was made that traces of glass were found leading out of Filomena's room and out the front door. Can this be verified or refuted?
This one would be very important to know the truth on since if true it would indicate that the breaker of the window left the house without going to the bedroom first, thus it would be conclusive evidence of staging. If false it would be interesting that those pushing guilt would have to invent stuff to make their case stronger (well more stuff.)
Can anyone help with this too. When was this picture taken?
It's a cropped part of this image
6) Claim was made that Meredith's bra was removed after her death because there was no blood where it would have been. I have also seen it claimed that as blood was found on her breast area, that it was removed before she died. Which is correct?
Danceme and Draca have competing claims here, both can't be true. This is important to establish as it is unlikely that Rudy would have been the bra remover if Meredith had been dead for some time prior to this action.
9) What did Amanda tell Filomena when she rang at 12:08pm the day after the murder?
It would seem that Amanda and Filomena have different versions of what was said. It would seem strange that Amanda would say she had to ring Raffaele to come over when she had already returned to his place previously after having showered, why didn't she just ask him to return with her then?
11) A claim was made that traces of glass were found leading out of Filomena's room and out the front door. Can this be verified or refuted?
This one would be very important to know the truth on since if true it would indicate that the breaker of the window left the house without going to the bedroom first, thus it would be conclusive evidence of staging. If false it would be interesting that those pushing guilt would have to invent stuff to make their case stronger (well more stuff.)
Can anyone help with this too. When was this picture taken?
It's a cropped part of this image
Kevin_Lowe
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I tend to think that if the Massei report totally fails to mention this claimed trail of glass then it's almost certainly a guilter fabrication. It might be a fun side project to run this one to earth and see where it originated, but I'd be comfortable betting that it isn't going to turn out to have any reasonable basis.
I think that was taken the day the body was discovered.
Guilters obsess over the mark on Amanda's neck and seem to think that it's vastly important, in much the same way that they obsess over the mop and the lamp. However since it doesn't look particularly like an injury inflicted in a life-or-death struggle, nor anything like an injury that might bleed all over the place inflicted the night before, and the Perugia police didn't make anything of it despite their eagerness to pursue even the silliest evidence I don't make anything of it myself. She just had a hickie or something. Given she was in a new sexual relationship I don't find this staggeringly unusual.
Ampulla of Vater
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Charlie confirmed she did have droplets of blood on her breasts within the last 2 or 3 weeks here on this thread.
theRealBob
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In reply to these questions - :
Can anyone help with this too. When was this picture (of Amanda with the mark on her throat) taken?
It was taken on the morning after the murder.
Also
2. The claim is made that Amanda's shoe print was found under the pillow on the bed. Is this true, or was this the footprint that was claimed to be Rafelle's and then turned out to be Rudy's?.
The prosecution and Guliters claimed it was a woman's size 37 shoeprint which had to be Amanda's. When examined more closely it appeared to be a partial footprint showing only the front section of the foot due to a crease in the pillow and was another one of Rudy's footprints. So no real surprises there.
And in another reduction of the 'mountain of evidence' Michelli faced in the intitial trial stages...
3. When did Allessandra Formica see Rudy?
Alessandra Formica stated the man who bumped into her was 'a person of colour' which in that part of the world means of Arabic or Middle-Eastern origin, not a black man as initially reported.
Can anyone help with this too. When was this picture (of Amanda with the mark on her throat) taken?
It was taken on the morning after the murder.
Also
2. The claim is made that Amanda's shoe print was found under the pillow on the bed. Is this true, or was this the footprint that was claimed to be Rafelle's and then turned out to be Rudy's?.
The prosecution and Guliters claimed it was a woman's size 37 shoeprint which had to be Amanda's. When examined more closely it appeared to be a partial footprint showing only the front section of the foot due to a crease in the pillow and was another one of Rudy's footprints. So no real surprises there.
And in another reduction of the 'mountain of evidence' Michelli faced in the intitial trial stages...
3. When did Allessandra Formica see Rudy?
Alessandra Formica stated the man who bumped into her was 'a person of colour' which in that part of the world means of Arabic or Middle-Eastern origin, not a black man as initially reported.
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Ampulla of Vater
Illuminator
I must be wr... um, I must be wr... I must be confused. It had to have been on a different site because he hasn't posted here for a while. I am trying to find it.
theRealBob
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I personally find it to be the most convincing piece of evidence against Amanda, out of all of it (or all of the none of it) and to be glossed over. I can easily imagine a room full of interrogators staring at it and getting angrier by the minute.
Ampulla of Vater
Illuminator
This is from Charlie on IIP on 3/30/2011 at 4:24 pm:
The large wound on Meredith's throat cut into her trachea. It was an aspirating wound, which emitted a spray of blood droplets as she struggled to breathe. This obviously would have ceased when she stopped breathing. The spray is visible on the outside of the wardrobe side panel, next to where her head lay when she was found, showing that she was still breathing when she was moved to that position. The same spray is visible on the cups of her bra, and on her breasts, showing that she was still breathing when the bra was exposed and then removed.
(Bolding is CW's)
and then Katody added:
[re Massei] It quotes however a policewoman describing the body:
`I then saw this girl who was on the floor with her face lying towards the right of the viewer, with a terrible wound. Was semi-naked, had the t-shirt rolled up above the breast and lots of blood and spatters of blood even on the breast‛
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