Continuation Part 2 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[quadraginta]

Why are you trying to explain that to me? The pro-innocence side from the start has been complaining about the prosecution/guilters not holding everyone to the same standard that Knox is held to.

Because apparently this high ground you have been holding as a member of the pro-innocence "side" momentarily slipped your mind in this post, when you claimed that Filomena "wasn't very forthcoming" (Your bold.) because she "should know exactly how her room should have looked. " (My highlighting.)

Its not Knox pretending to have super hearing. Its not Knox that testified that Knox was throwing olives at him. Its not Knox that saw dead people, buses, did heroin and then claims to see Knox/Sollecito standing on a basketball court while Meredith was getting murdered. Its not knox that claims knox/sollecito staged a burglary by making it look like a burglary. Yet apparently doing cartwheels gets you locked up for 26 years.

You might want to think carefully before you pursue this line of discussion much further.

 

[pilot padron]

I like how you ignored my last post. You talk about me constanly but then when given the oportunity to talk to me you opt out. I find that pretty interesting.

I talk about you constantly ???

Huh ???

Again, the only thing I recall saying about *your arguments* here is that I completely and with alacrity agree with the concise and correct comment Frank Sfarzo made about them.
Your quote above makes that agreement even more applicable and accurate, and shows your arguments as absolutely confused.

With regard to the previous post, I immediately re-read my disclaimer and saw no need to respond.

However, despite my evaluation that your second post seems to me to be very close to violating Membership Agreement, since it was allowed to stand by moderators, and in the interest of 'lively' discussion and ernestness I will humor you for one time.
Lest you continue to senselessly argue that anyone should need to ever 'run away' from anything

Hi Stint,
Can you please explain to me how I am confused? If you read my exchange with Frank you will see that I am not confused at all. Maybe I am confused about not being confused. Could you please elaborate on your comments?

Huh ??

You are definitely confused.

The post from me (Pilot) states quite clearly that "Frank Sfarzo said you were confused
How do I (or even stint on PMF,) know *why Frank definitely said* your arguments were confused

To avoid additional confusion; is it too confusing for you to just ask Frank

Or, are you trying to reply to someone on PMF, (stint??) who said he was confused.... and you hit a confusing keyboard button ??.

Oh, of course, I forgot you have been asked never to post on PMF again because you 'get confused' and cannot follow simple rules.

Also, recently a 16 year old on PMF documented your confusing use of multiple identities there too from your strange confusing E-Mails to him

Although I concluded my argument with a disclaimer very applicable here, to avoid trivial time wasting, I will indulge *other* readers.

Here is the direct quote that Mr Sfarzo used to tell you you were confused:
*****************
"Ah ok, Bruce, so you just repeat what the defense says.

That explains why we don't agree, because I don't agree with many arguments the defense used.

You see, you got all confused. "
*****************
Parse it, spin it, re-context it "summarize" it, deny it, photo shop it or any/all the other things you do in your "arguments".....
But there it is...c-o-n-f-u-s-e-d

Reply not needed, because my relationship with you (and all your other identities is ended)

No one runs, but everyone tires of barnyard slurs and false identity accusations that contribute nothing, despite that being the mainstay of the pitifully patronized, shamelessly spammed, childishly copycated IIP.

 

[Kaosium]

You have to bear in mind that the Massei/Mignini mission was not merely to make up a fairy story where all the evidence was consistent with Amanda and Raffaele doing it.

They had to make up a fairy story where all the evidence proved that Amanda and Raffaele did it.

They couldn't claim that Amanda and Raffaele broke the window in a way indistinguishable from a real break-in. That wouldn't be evidence against them. They had to claim that Amanda and Raffaele broke the window in a way that proved that it was staged, no matter how stupid that made the story they were telling.

Good point, and he really didn't have much to work with. Especially on the 'proof' part. I suppose he had to try to account for the glass embedded on the outside of the inner shutter so he had to have the window pulled inside so it would be on the same plane as that inner shutter...just like if it had been thrown threw the window when normally closed--like it actually was. That would also 'account' for the 'lack of glass' in their smoking area under the window--that they never bothered to photograph.

The glass pattern gets the handwave with the cherry-picked quote from the ballistics expert saying there's no way to predict it with certainty (so it can fly out to the rug and bed at 90 degrees or so--very clever!) and voila! Almost all the evidence is twisted so if you don't ever look at that picture it even seems somewhat possible. Except what pair of stoned college kids would ever think of such a thing, and if they did why would they pick a window that some have difficulty imagining a person would scale? Why not just heave a rock through the balcony window instead of this nonsense if they wanted to 'stage' it?

Personally I think this just more 'proof' that the logic of the Italian courts is more mind-altering than anything Raffaele or Amanda were accused of doing.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

I talk about you constantly ???

Huh ???

Again, the only thing I recall saying about *your arguments* here is that I completely and with alacrity agree with the concise and correct comment Frank Sfarzo made about them.
Your quote above makes that agreement even more applicable and accurate, and shows your arguments as absolutely confused.

With regard to the previous post, I immediately re-read my disclaimer and saw no need to respond.

However, despite my evaluation that your second post seems to me to be very close to violating Membership Agreement, since it was allowed to stand by moderators, and in the interest of 'lively' discussion and ernestness I will humor you for one time.
Lest you continue to senselessly argue that anyone should need to ever 'run away' from anything




Huh ??

You are definitely confused.

The post from me (Pilot) states quite clearly that "Frank Sfarzo said you were confused
How do I (or even stint on PMF,) know why &Frank said* you were definitely confused

To avoid additional confusion; is it too confusing for you to just ask Frank

Or, are you trying to reply to someone on PMF, (stint??) who said he was confused.... and you hit a confusing keyboard button ??.

Oh, of course, I forgot you have been asked never to post on PMF again because you 'get confused' and cannot follow simple rules.

Also, recently a 16 year old on PMF documented your confusing use of multiple identities there too from your strange confusing E-Mails to him

Although I concluded my argument with a disclaimer very applicable here, to avoid trivial time wasting, I will indulge *other* readers.

Here is the direct quote that Mr Sfarzo used to tell you you were confused:
*****************
"Ah ok, Bruce, so you just repeat what the defense says.

That explains why we don't agree, because I don't agree with many arguments the defense used.

You see, you got all confused. "
*****************
Parse it, spin it, re-context it "summarize" it, deny it, photo shop it or any/all the other things you do in your "arguments".....
But there it is...c-o-n-f-u-s-e-d

Reply not needed, because my relationship with you (and all your other identities is ended)

No one runs, but everyone tires of barnyard slurs and false identity accusations that contribute nothing, despite that being the mainstay of the pitifully patronized, shamelessly spammed, childishly copycated IIP.

I think this post sums up an awful lot. I'm the one that's confused? Wow!

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Ron Hendry did an excellent analysis of the bra and clasp. I discussed Ron's work in the IIP book but somehow neglected to add it to the IIP website. Ron's analysis shows that the bra was ripped off with brute force, not cut with a blade. You can see Ron's analysis here: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendrybraseverance.html

 

[Dan O.]

Ron Hendry did an excellent analysis of the bra and clasp. I discussed Ron's work in the IIP book but somehow neglected to add it to the IIP website. Ron's analysis shows that the bra was ripped off with brute force, not cut with a blade. You can see Ron's analysis here: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/RonHendrybraseverance.html

I sometimes think that Ron has been stealing my work except that I don't always agree with his conclusions. My opinion is that the ripping apart of the right shoulder strap could have happened with a single handed pull on the back band below the right shoulder outside of where the right strap attaches to the band. Pulling up and away from the body and towards the lower body against the dead weight of the body would cause the strap to peal off the band and subsequently peal the clasp from the band. The sudden release of the clasp would cause the strap to snap back through the lifter's hand and an automatic reaction to tighten the grip on the escaping material. The combination of the fast sliding and tight grip on the now unprotected factory cut edge of the band material is going to leave a memorable cut/burn that will sting like crazy.

Does someone have that photo of Rudy's cut hand handy?​

The left shoulder strap is problematical since it should still be under Meredith's t-shirt. I have heard from multiple sources that these straps are subject to failing on their own so it may not have taken an excessive force to break it. Since Meredith should already be on her back before the bra was fully removed just pulling on that strap from the front in trying to move Meredith may have been all it took to break the strap and remove the bra.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

flea flicker redux

No one told me that I could only jump in at a certain time. Did you make that a rule when you set up this Foundation?

I have not mischaracterized the actual question. You're wishing I had, I'm sure. I have backed up Alt's position, with cites...from a person who actually has had many conversations with Nara, and has refuted claims that she is almost deaf, and a nut.

I am therefore on point. I can enter and leave, at any point, unless I am banned. I have taken the advice of people here, and provided proof of what I'm claiming. Credible proof, from one of your own.

Oh, any idea, Halides, who gave the info to Maria, from Oggi? I've heard it cheeped that it could have been from someone named * P***L..? I'm not going to cite, I shall follow Journalist's leeway not to name their sources. I don't imagine anyone who fed that rubbish to Oggi, wants to fess up ? Thought not.

Capealadin,

Are you confused, or are you trying to sow confusion? Maria was not the reporter who brought up the possibility that Nara had mental health issues. She merely discussed PM Mignini's overinterpretation of it, with reference to the court's reconstruction. If you think that what Massei or Mignini fed her was "rubbish," then you are in all likelyhood unique among the pro-guilt community. She wrote, "In all frankness, if under your window you hear a loud scream and then the sound of an imprecise number of people running in different directions, then how can you accuse anyone in particular, without seeing them?" Indeed, her question leads to other thoughts, such as the inconsistency between believing that multiple people were running right after the scream versus the prosecution's tale, where Amanda and Raffaele remain behind. Or if we believe that Amanda and Raffaele left and then came back, then we must ask ourselves how they got get dressed so quickly. Your willingness to avoid the tough questions by making a smokescreen makes me think you would be pretty good at running the flea flicker play after all.

 

[Mary_H]

<snip>But Mary, please don't allow my opinions and direct quotes to make you do anything you dislike.

Okay, I won't.

<snip>Oh, of course, I forgot you have been asked never to post on PMF again because you 'get confused' and cannot follow simple rules.

Bruce is in good company. At least 65 other posters have been asked never to post on PMF again. That's a sizable proportion of those who ever posted there at all. I guess they were all confused rule-breakers.

<snip>Also, recently a 16 year old on PMF documented your confusing use of multiple identities there too from your strange confusing E-Mails to him.

Research on Google will show you the 16-year-old is not who he says he is. He appears to be an actual confused rule-breaker in real life. His ban will be announced shortly.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

impeccable

capealadin,

You have said elsewhere that Dr. Stefanoni has a sterling (perhaps your word was impeccable) reputation. What considerations went into your evaluation?

 

[pilot padron]

Not correct at all

Okay, I won't.
Bruce is in good company. At least 65 other posters have been asked never to post on PMF again. That's a sizable proportion of those who ever posted there at all. I guess they were all confused rule-breakers.
Research on Google will show you the 16-year-old is not who he says he is. He appears to be an actual confused rule-breaker in real life. His ban will be announced shortly.

Hi Mary
Full reply and complete refutation *with cites*sent via PM

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Okay, I won't.




Bruce is in good company. At least 65 other posters have been asked never to post on PMF again. That's a sizable proportion of those who ever posted there at all. I guess they were all confused rule-breakers.




Research on Google will show you the 16-year-old is not who he says he is. He appears to be an actual confused rule-breaker in real life. His ban will be announced shortly.

The funny thing about this "teen blogger" (who may very well not be a teen, but then again, who cares) took over PMF for 3 days. He was the topic of conversation there. PMF went from mocking him to loving him and taking him under their wing.

And I was the one labeled a creep by Peg. They sure have a unique view of things don't they?

 

[RoseMontague]

Hi Mary
Full reply and complete refutation *with cites*sent via PM

I can think of 18½ right off hand but I could be including Nixon in that group for some odd reason. I would love to get that PM as well if you get a chance. TIA.

 

[quadraginta]

Maybe when this thread gets booted into its next iteration we should suggest it be re-titled once again.

I was thinking something like, "PMF guilty - all because of a cartwheel."

...and in the keyword list we could add, "unsolved topic".

 

[capealadin]

capealadin,

You have said elsewhere that Dr. Stefanoni has a sterling (perhaps your word was impeccable) reputation. What considerations went into your evaluation?

The topic of the Oggi article, Frank's denial of same, the fact that Paul, Candace et al continued to spread false rumours, re Nara being almost deaf, and a nut, are now debunked.

Frank at Perugia Shock has written plenty about what he thinks of a lot of you. Read there for further clarification, if needed.

I have answered and cited the above claims. Frank says much about Dr. Stefanoni's excellent work. Again, read there.

I will not be caught up in the interminable spin, moving of goalposts. That rigmarole is nothing short of mind numbing boring.

As I have mentioned BEFORE...We can discuss the outcomes when the appeals have been decided. That will decide the quality of Dr. Stefononi's work. By the EXPERTS.

 

[RoseMontague]

I sometimes think that Ron has been stealing my work except that I don't always agree with his conclusions. My opinion is that the ripping apart of the right shoulder strap could have happened with a single handed pull on the back band below the right shoulder outside of where the right strap attaches to the band. Pulling up and away from the body and towards the lower body against the dead weight of the body would cause the strap to peal off the band and subsequently peal the clasp from the band. The sudden release of the clasp would cause the strap to snap back through the lifter's hand and an automatic reaction to tighten the grip on the escaping material. The combination of the fast sliding and tight grip on the now unprotected factory cut edge of the band material is going to leave a memorable cut/burn that will sting like crazy.

Does someone have that photo of Rudy's cut hand handy?​

It's funny that I stumbled on this high resolution picture a few months ago and now it is everywhere. I never did finish that project.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Maybe when this thread gets booted into its next iteration we should suggest it be re-titled once again.

I was thinking something like, "PMF guilty - all because of a cartwheel."

...and in the keyword list we could add, "unsolved topic".

That mystery's been solved.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

The topic of the Oggi article, Frank's denial of same, the fact that Paul, Candace et al continued to spread false rumours, re Nara being almost deaf, and a nut, are now debunked.

Frank at Perugia Shock has written plenty about what he thinks of a lot of you. Read there for further clarification, if needed.

I have answered and cited the above claims. Frank says much about Dr. Stefanoni's excellent work. Again, read there.

I will not be caught up in the interminable spin, moving of goalposts. That rigmarole is nothing short of mind numbing boring.

As I have mentioned BEFORE...We can discuss the outcomes when the appeals have been decided. That will decide the quality of Dr. Stefononi's work. By the EXPERTS.

This topic has been pretty silly. I don't know why it amazes me that such a big deal has been made about the Oggi article. Do we need to look back at everything that was falsely reported about Amanda? Does everyone need to see the entire list of misinformation and outright lies that have been printed and fully embraced by those that Cape calls friends?

The information about Nara's hearing may very well be wrong. If it is then a correction should be made.

Paul interviewed Nara's relatives. He has their account about Nara's well being. I trust Paul and I believe that information to be correct.

Candace reported on the Oggi article. If there was an error in the article then Oggi is responsible, not Candace.

Frank believes without a doubt that Amanda and Raffaele are innocent. I am not sure why Cape thinks that anything Frank says benefits his/her cause.

A very weak attempt was made to make it look like the side of innocence was having a major blow up. That doesn't happen with reasonable people. We tend to have discussions. You won't see IIP breaking up into mini camps anytime soon.

 

[Mary_H]

Hi Mary
Full reply and complete refutation *with cites*sent via PM

I answered pilot's e-mail and told him I would correct the wrong impression I have given here on JREF. The fact is, 65 people have not been banned at PMF. Each of the people on the list below was either banned, threatened with banning, asked to leave, "thanked for stopping by," or ostracized by the group until they left of their own initiative. Some expulsions were only temporary; some posters came back after a required time-out. I apologize for speaking too broadly.

As of this past March, PMF had had a total of 477 members who had made posts on the site. 65 is 13.6% of 477. That seems sizable to me.

Acepetdec, Adentre, Anadara, Aspie, Bilko, BlackDog, Brooktrout, Bruce F, Butters_02, CDHost, Charlie Wilkes, Chris C, Chris Mellas, Chris H, Competence, Cora, Darksoul, Deathfish2000, Don Paulo, Donnie, Dougpdx, DrZaius, Earl Gray, Erin89, FromHell, FrumpyCat, Gobjob, Goofy, Grimly, Harry R. Wilkens, Hershon, Jake80, Jason_01, Jsbjoey, Justinian, Kaosium, Katody, Katy_did, KayPea, Kevin, Komponisto, Lane99, London John, Lone_wolfe, Moodstream, Motorhead, Mstv14420, Mulder_01, Nathan05, NoamChomsky, Pink Rabbit, Pyromaniac, RoseMontag, Rosewhite, Rumpole, Solange, SomeAlibi, Steve.body, Tamale, Thoughtful, Trrooonnnic, Undecided, Vespaciano, Whatever, Willawinda

Corrections and additions are welcome.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

The Crime of Perugia: The Other Truth

The topic of the Oggi article, Frank's denial of same, the fact that Paul, Candace et al continued to spread false rumours, re Nara being almost deaf, and a nut, are now debunked.

Frank at Perugia Shock has written plenty about what he thinks of a lot of you. Read there for further clarification, if needed.

I have answered and cited the above claims. Frank says much about Dr. Stefanoni's excellent work. Again, read there.

I will not be caught up in the interminable spin, moving of goalposts. That rigmarole is nothing short of mind numbing boring.

As I have mentioned BEFORE...We can discuss the outcomes when the appeals have been decided. That will decide the quality of Dr. Stefononi's work. By the EXPERTS.

Capealadin,

We have reached an impasse with respect to the Oggi article, written by Giangavino Sulas. You have not discussed the paradoxes Maria D'Alia noted in her book, not article. You said that you would not discuss Nara's testimony until the appeals were over, IIUC. Your failure to discuss the problems in Nara's testimony that even Massei admits are there, and your misrepresentation of your own actions (claiming to have answered and cited something you have previously refused to discuss) does not do you any credit. Quite frankly, I am disappointed. Until now I thought that you were above board.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

I answered pilot's e-mail and told him I would correct the wrong impression I have given here on JREF. The fact is, 65 people have not been banned at PMF. Each of the people on the list below was either banned, threatened with banning, asked to leave, "thanked for stopping by," or ostracized by the group until they left of their own initiative. Some expulsions were only temporary; some posters came back after a required time-out. I apologize for speaking too broadly.

As of this past March, PMF had had a total of 477 people who had made posts on the site. 65 is 13.6% of 477. That seems sizable to me.

Acepetdec, Adentre, Anadara, Aspie, Bilko, BlackDog, Brooktrout, Bruce F, Butters_02, CDHost, Charlie Wilkes, Chris C, Chris Mellas, Chris H, Competence, Cora, Darksoul, Deathfish2000, Don Paulo, Donnie, Dougpdx, DrZaius, Earl Gray, Erin89, FromHell, FrumpyCat, Gobjob, Goofy, Grimly, Harry R. Wilkens, Hershon, Jake80, Jason_01, Jsbjoey, Justinian, Kaosium, Katody, Katy_did, KayPea, Kevin, Komponisto, Lane99, London John, Lone_wolfe, Moodstream, Motorhead, Mstv14420, Mulder_01, Nathan05, NoamChomsky, Pink Rabbit, Pyromaniac, RoseMontag, Rosewhite, Rumpole, Solange, SomeAlibi, Steve.body, Tamale, Thoughtful, Trrooonnnic, Undecided, Vespaciano, Whatever, Willawinda

Corrections and additions are welcome.

Do you want to add "Fine" now or wait a day or so?