Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

[Information Analyst]

It does make me wonder whether the parents would have been as outraged if their daughter's lover had been ten years' younger.

Exactly. Although historically large age differences between partners is nothing new, it does seem to me that society as a whole is becoming more "suspicious" of them, with an assumption that the older party is inherently "predatory."

 

[bookitty]

It is an extreme. However, someone inexpert at bondage could cause it accidentally by placing ropes in the wrong places... Which, I hope is what Cavemonster is getting at. If he's not, and he's actually talking about breath play as if it's a regular aspect of BDSM, then he's really depicting BDSM inappropriately.

That is what I would have expected but have no way of discovering. Thank you, it's always so nice when someone provides the E in JREF.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Personally - this case makes me sad. A 16 year-old who is already into BSDM that leaves marks? Shouldn't you work up to that? Maybe explore less dramatic sexual play for a few years.

If that is what turns her on and if say she bruises easily what is the issue? Body modification is one thing but a few bruises there are loads of activities that can regularly result in bruising. A friend had a welt for months from paintball.

I would find a lot of that more worrisome if she was doing it with a boy her own age. Again it is assumptions but it is not unreasonable to think that the 30 year old will have more forethought and experience than a 16 year old.

This is certainly getting into boundaries that would squick a lot of people and when my nieces are that age and if they were doing that I would want to talk to the guy and her about it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It is an extreme. However, someone inexpert at bondage could cause it accidentally by placing ropes in the wrong places... Which, I hope is what Cavemonster is getting at. If he's not, and he's actually talking about breath play as if it's a regular aspect of BDSM, then he's really depicting BDSM inappropriately.

It is interesting to note that it is one of the things that Dan Savage regularly argues against for safety reasons, and there is not much he argues against.

 

[23_Tauri]

I would find a lot of that more worrisome if she was doing it with a boy her own age.

Yes, me too. Mentioned this in my post #24. In fact, if I were a mum I would be much more concerned if two teenagers were mucking about with ropes.

 

[Cavemonster]

How common is asphyxiation in BDSM? I can understand how the idea of relinquishing control to the point of real danger could be erotic within that context. But that seems as if it would be an extreme. Then again, my knowledge is second-hand and lacking gory details.

Not only that (that breath play isn't the most common form of fetish play by any means), the scenario in the OP did not involve anything that could result in death of the participants. So I think it's a strawman.

Not a strawman, just a broadening of the example. I assume we're talking about the permissability of adults having BDSM sessions with minors in general, not just what this couple was up to for this particular weekend.

That said, the current rate of accidents isn't really applicable. Partly because it's very difficult to track and difficult to measure by people participating in these activities, which itself is not well enough documented. Partly because the risk level is affected by the abilities of the participants. We understand a certain risk level for driving for instance, and we understand that it's elevated for, say, 12 year olds who don't have the motor skills, attention spans, or risk management skills to drive as safely as their adult counterparts. We don't need a specific study on 12 year old drivers with an accident rate to extrapolate that.

 

[bookitty]

If that is what turns her on and if say she bruises easily what is the issue? Body modification is one thing but a few bruises there are loads of activities that can regularly result in bruising. A friend had a welt for months from paintball.

I would find a lot of that more worrisome if she was doing it with a boy her own age. Again it is assumptions but it is not unreasonable to think that the 30 year old will have more forethought and experience than a 16 year old.

This is certainly getting into boundaries that would squick a lot of people and when my nieces are that age and if they were doing that I would want to talk to the guy and her about it.

Yep. I am fully ready to admit that this squicks me but that doesn't mean I think the girl in this case needs to be stopped. Yes, I would be more comfortable if my niece (at 16) were to take her sexual exploration a bit slower. That doesn't mean that I have any right to judge her if she doesn't or that I have any right to promote my vanilla/monogamous lifestyle as the best possible option.

It's a bit like religion. I avoid promoting any specific viewpoint with her because faith (or lack) is a personal decision that you need to figure out for yourself.

 

[Ausmerican]

Voluntary BDSM or Aggravated Assault?

In either case, it is better to give than to receive.

 

[Cavemonster]

It is an extreme. However, someone inexpert at bondage could cause it accidentally by placing ropes in the wrong places... Which, I hope is what Cavemonster is getting at. If he's not, and he's actually talking about breath play as if it's a regular aspect of BDSM, then he's really depicting BDSM inappropriately.

I am making no negative statements about the BDSM community, which is incredibly dedicated to safety and real informed consent.

But I think many here are making assumptions that anyone whose sex life involves bondage is a part of that community and educated about safe, sane ways to engage in this sort of play.

Breath play exists, whether it's part of what's encouraged by the BDSM community or not, it's common enough.

There are many activities that get people off that carry various levels of risk that a 16 year old is probably not in a position to take on. The fact that there exists a community of smart, kind people who regularly engage in BDSM does not guarantee that a random partner will be one of these educated and thoughtful people.

I don't like the call for an assumption that all pain related play involves educated members of this community anymore than I like the assumption that because her partner is older he must be experienced and know what he's doing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I am making no negative statements about the BDSM community, which is incredibly dedicated to safety and real informed consent.

But I think many here are making assumptions that anyone whose sex life involves bondage is a part of that community and educated about safe, sane ways to engage in this sort of play.

There seems to be a real lack of information about the reality of their relationship

Breath play exists, whether it's part of what's encouraged by the BDSM community or not, it's common enough.

Documentation of this claim?

There are many activities that get people off that carry various levels of risk that a 16 year old is probably not in a position to take on. The fact that there exists a community of smart, kind people who regularly engage in BDSM does not guarantee that a random partner will be one of these educated and thoughtful people.

What real risks did she take on? IT seems to be a bit of bruising.

 

[Senex]

We have an interesting law case here in Sweden. A 16 year old had sex with a 30 year old. Now this in by itself is 100% legal since the age of consent is 15, except in special circumstances. The problem was that the sex was violent. He apparently "locked the girl in a dog crate, how he put crocodile clips on her breasts and fastened them to the wall so she had to stand on her toes and that he repeatedly struck the girl's naked body with a cane". The girls mother apparently saw the bruising and contacted the authorities.

Holy smokes I can't believe how many people think this is OK. I'm impressed with the non knee jerk reaction about older men exploiting younger women but the guy is 30 and she is 16. Sometimes what you feel in your gut is right. This is wrong.

And I'll admit I wouldn't be as angry if the woman was 30 and the boy was 16 -- but I would hope the boy should know the male does the spanking.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Let's say there was a video of the sex which shows the young woman "going along" with it and not attempting to stop it at any point by using the safe word.

Would anyone change their mind about the prosecution of the man if the young woman had complained that she felt coerced to continue to engage in the sex and was too frightened to use the safe word?

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Holy smokes I can't believe how many people think this is OK. I'm impressed with the non knee jerk reaction about older men exploiting younger women but the guy is 30 and she is 16. Sometimes what you feel in your gut is right. This is wrong.

In what way was she exploited?

 

[Cavemonster]

There seems to be a real lack of information about the reality of their relationship

Absolutely, but again, this conversation isn't just about this relationship. We're talking about what appropriate laws might be, and you don't make laws for each individual human.

The fact is that this particular relationship could very well be healthy and mutually beneficial, but we don't know. Similarly, an individual might be really able to process alcohol well and drive absolutely safely well over the legal limit. The way we work risk management into law is not by legislating around idiosyncrasies, but by drawing clear lines.

Documentation of this claim?

Documentation that breath play exists and that people are into it? Do a simple google search.

What real risks did she take on? IT seems to be a bit of bruising.

That was the injury that she took on, which is not the extent of the risk.
She was supported by clamps from her nipples such that she had to stand on her tiptoes. I don't know how strong those clamps were, and neither to you. If she had gotten spooked by a door suddenly opening, or exhausted if he got distracted and left, or slipped if the floor had an overwaxed spot, it could have ripped her nipple off. It absolutely depended on his skill, knowledge and concentration to keep that from happening. Outside of sex, we don't allow minors to take on that level of risk.

Again, these are just the activities we know they engaged in. Other activities carry other risks.

Over and above that, there are real emotional risks. I didn't want to bring them up because they are incredibly tricky to define, to track, and to prove. But I think being ordered to write this statement and post it online:

"I am a slave, a filthy dirty whore and want to be treated like that, I want to be exploited, harassed and thoroughly humiliated until I can barely hold back the tears and silent cries who suffocated inside "

While it may be an excitingly lovely dirty fantasy fulfillment for some, is also pushing a lot of buttons in a teenage mind that biologically processes both risk and emotion differently from an adult brain.

Again, Sweden has a law preventing inflicting pain and humiliation on a minor. The question at hand is whether sex is a valid exception.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

Let's say there was a video of the sex which shows the young woman "going along" with it and not attempting to stop it at any point by using the safe word.

Would anyone change their mind about the prosecution of the man if the young woman had complained that she felt coerced to continue to engage in the sex and was too frightened to use the safe word?

Yes if there was evidence of coercion or behaviour by the man which would cause her to feel frightened.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Holy smokes I can't believe how many people think this is OK. I'm impressed with the non knee jerk reaction about older men exploiting younger women but the guy is 30 and she is 16. Sometimes what you feel in your gut is right. This is wrong.

I find it hard to believe the amount of power and influence is even close to being equal between 16 and 30 year olds in *any* situation.

Also, it does make me wonder what she'd been doing as a child to be into BDSM at the age of 16.

 

[Arcade22]

Ah, apologies, I started a reponse, but got distracted by something shiny

This to me reads as Loki's wager again. Something exists on a continuum, so no distinction can be drawn? If you can't say exactly where my head ends and my neck begins, then you can't chop off my head?

If you want to make something illegal and punishable by law you should make it obvious to people who can read and comprehend written text that the act is illegal so you can avoid uncertainties. The law should be as concrete as possible.

We have legally recognized ways of charging people with assault and/or battery (The terminology changes from place to place). Normally hitting someone with a stick hard enough to leave bruises would qualify. Now friends can still wrestle, or play touch football, but the law is generally not bad at differentiating. You can question their ability to do this, but most first world law enforcement makes this judgement on a daily basis, and they in general do a decent job of it.

The issue here is of consent as a defense to a charge that already exists on the lawbooks Some jurisdictions allow it, some don't, many just place different levels of value on it, based on things like the extent of harm.

As far as i understand one can consent to minor assault and assault of the normal degree but not to aggravated assault.

There are also laws against endangering a minor (Remember, even though 16 is the age of consent to sex, it is legally a minor in most other legal realms). Again, I don't know what the specific laws are in Sweden, but in the US they vary by state. I would be surprised if there was no such legislation in your country.

The only specific "child endangerment law" i could find was this:

"If a parent in the exercise of custody of a child is guilty of abuse or neglect or other deficiencies in care for the child in a manner resulting in permanent danger to the child's health or development, the court shall decide on the change in custody."

However this law is probably much more restrictive and specific than yours and i don't think that it's even remotely relevant in this case.

So the issue isn't creating some new crime, but whether or not to allow consent as a defense for existing criminal definitions. I might suggest that anything that could be charged as endangering a minor not have an exception just because they happen to be having sex. I would also think that a consent defense for assault and battery wouldn't be available until the subject is... well a bit older than I'd say.

So doing these "extreme acts" should be legal for "adults" but not "minors"? In all cases?

We're not creating from whole cloth a way to police sexual exploits. We're talking about the ways in which sex and consent effect laws already on the books.

So then again i must request that you're more specific in what you think should and shouldn't be legal. Apparently having sex with a 16 year old girl in the missionary position would be legal but what else? Anal sex can be pretty painful and risky if you do it wrong.

Edit: Apparently, Sweden has a particularly strict anti-spanking law stating "a child may not be subjected to physical punishment or other injurious or humiliating treatment". A "child" is legally defined elsewhere in Swedish law as anyone under 18.

A child is defined differently depending on which laws we're talking about. Having sex with anyone under 15 is legally "rape against a child", or "sexual exploitation of a child" in less sever cases, yet if one were to produce pornography with a 15-17 year old one would be guilty of producing child pornography.

The age of majority is at 18 and that's when most laws restricting behavior because of ones age disappear, the age when one can buy stronger alcoholic beverages being a noticeable exception.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure consent isn't an accepted defense for the spanking law in other circumstances.

I don't think so but I'm not a legal expert, though i don't think this law is relevant in the slightest since it is targeted specifically against parents, guardians, teachers and the like.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That was the injury that she took on, which is not the extent of the risk.
She was supported by clamps from her nipples such that she had to stand on her tiptoes. I don't know how strong those clamps were, and neither to you. If she had gotten spooked by a door suddenly opening, or exhausted if he got distracted and left, or slipped if the floor had an overwaxed spot, it could have ripped her nipple off. It absolutely depended on his skill, knowledge and concentration to keep that from happening. Outside of sex, we don't allow minors to take on that level of risk.

Really? That is your argument.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Yes if there was evidence of coercion or behaviour by the man which would cause her to feel frightened.

To many people what occurs in BDSM would be thought of as coercive behaviour which would make them feel frightened if they were in the role of the sub who had less power and influence than the dom in virtually every other situation outside the bedroom as well as in it.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

To many people what occurs in BDSM would be thought of as coercive behaviour which would make them feel frightened if they were in the role of the sub who had less power and influence than the dom in virtually every other situation outside the bedroom as well as in it.

Yes, but "most people" don't voluntarily enter into such an arrangement... I meant evidence of coercive behaviour prior to the sex.