General Israel/Palestine discussion thread

[Stout]

I've wondered about that for a long time, and have come to the conclusion that in this context (the Israeli/Arab conflict) that "peace activists" as a group don't want peace right away, it's an eventual goal they think will be achieved after Israel is destroyed.

Kinda like the slogan, "No peace without justice!' It sounds great and noble, but what does "justice" mean? It doesn't sound like they're willing to set their grievances aside and make peace, it sounds like they demand total capitulation on every demand then a full compensation (revenge?) for every perceived grievance. Far from being a path to peace it's an insurmountable obstacle.

I just wonder how many "peace activists" on an individual level work this logic through and realize this.

I fully agree.

As far as I can tell "peace actvist" is a role someone slips in and out of depending on who's pointing a camera at them. The term really only appliws to "western" forces being involved in a conflict and if they're absent, then the anti-war crowd usually keep their mouthes shut. Unless...there's some sort of the west caused it angle to explore. If the peoples of a soverign ( non-western) nation want to exercise their right to self determination by weilding machine guns, the anti war crowd is silent.

The term also shows up when the activists themselves are the target of violence, say the MM affair. We'll never know for sure whether the UIs were duped by the IIH and had no idea that the ship was going to go to war with the IDF but..one of our local UIs did state that his role was that of "protector". He was supposed to peacefully insert his body between the forces of agression and the innocent alt-media journalists to buy them time to file their stories.

Just how much time they'd actually get is debatable. How long does it take to tazer someone out of the way...seconds ?

"Social justice" is the main motivator behind these activist types. Peace is secondary, it's all about the fight.

 

[Skeptic]

"Social justice" meaning "go back to Auschwitz", as the moderate peace activists radioed to the evil Israeli soldiers who tried to stop them.

 

[Stout]

Any word on who made that comment ? Was it one of the imported social justice advocates or one of the Islamist IIH types ? I'm guessing IIH because the activists aren't that stupid seeng how this was a big PR stunt and that was really really bad PR.

Skeptic, I can see how you take this whole issue personally, living eight in the middle of it but the motivation of the activists is not anti-semitism, it's anti imperialism. Israel could be a country of Druids and they'd still act in the same fashion.

When it comes right down to it, the activists are motivated by guilt (collective guilt) and are re-fighting, if you will, the invasion of the Americas and the cultural interference imposed on the indigenous population. As yo know, when it comes to leftist politics, who was there first trumps all other concerns.

I watched some activist try to equate the plight of non-white immigrants to Canada with that of the indigenous population in an effort to "build solidarity" between the groups. All the other activists freaked out. Yea sure the immigrants are oppressed but how dare you even think they're on a similar footing to those that were here first. End of discussion.

 

[theprestige]

Any word on who made that comment ? Was it one of the imported social justice advocates or one of the Islamist IIH types ? I'm guessing IIH because the activists aren't that stupid seeng how this was a big PR stunt and that was really really bad PR.

You lost me. You seem to be saying that nobody who sets up a PR stunt is stupid enough to have it result in bad PR. But surely history is full of stupid PR stunts. So the fact that the activists set up a PR stunt doesn't really support the idea that they probably didn't screw it up somehow.

Indeed, the fact that they did set up a PR stunt kind of increases the probability that if they did screw something up, it'd be the PR stunt. I mean, it's not like they were going to screw up the 2010 Olympics, or humanitarian aid in sub-Saharan Africa.

Anyway, people say stupid, counter-productive stuff all the time. The news is full of organizations issuing apologies because one of their members said something stupid and counter-productive. "Their statements are not in line with what we are trying to do", "they do not represent the official position of this organization", "we deeply apologize for any offense caused by those remarks", etc.

Are these activists any less stupid than any other organization? I doubt it. By way of comparison, take the Sea Shepherds: We have plenty of evidence that they are dumber than a bowl of hair, when it comes to doing what they've set out to do. They're incompetent, unsafe, ineffective, bumbling nincompoops; a laughingstock and an embarrassment, when they're not actively courting loss of human life. Much like these activists, who actually did get people killed.

So don't tell me these activists are too smart to shoot themselves in the foot (or get themselves shot in the head), in the process of setting up their PR stunt. That stunt got people killed. I figure, stupid like that, all bets are off.

 

[Skeptic]

Skeptic, I can see how you take this whole issue personally, living eight in the middle of it but the motivation of the activists is not anti-semitism, it's anti imperialism. Israel could be a country of Druids and they'd still act in the same fashion.

Sadly, I don't think so. You have a point, certainly, but you're forgetting one thing -- since practically all countries in the world are "imperialist" (according to their definition), why pick on Israel specifically to this degree?

I've checked these folks history; in many cases, though not all of course, they are significantly influenced by the modern variation of the "protocols" -- only this time it isn't "the Jewish bankers control the world" but "the zionist bankers control the USA".

 

[Virus]

. As yo know, when it comes to leftist politics, who was there first trumps all other concerns.

If that's the case let's give Palestine back to Italy since the Romans were there long before the Arabs. After all, the word "Palestine" derives from Latin.

 

[Skeptic]

Wait, the Jews were there before the Romans... who, famously, did nothing for us...

 

[DC]

Wait, the Jews were there before the Romans... who, famously, did nothing for us...

 

[Skeptic]

I want to add something important here. It is simply not true that the zionists wanted a country because "the Bible promised it". On the contrary: those who to this day believe in the fulfilment of the biblical promise are the anti-zionist ultra-orthodox Jews, who consider the fulfilment of the Biblical country from the Nile to the Euphrades a matter of God's supernatural action.

Of course, if the messiah does in fact come and established such a Jewish kindgom, well, all bets are off (by the way, the same messiah -- who is a very naughty boy -- also would do certain other things like end death, unifying the world in perpetual peace, and other minor problem-solving), but this certainly isn't what the zionists were counting on.

They wanted the land of Israel because it was the Jews' ancient homeland, one they prayed to return to for 2000 years. This is an historical fact that has nothing to do with what the Bible says about any divine promise. It's the other way around: texts claiming that God will create a heavenly Jewish kingdom on earth are (some of) the evidence that Jews writing such texts lived in an actual Jewish kingdom in the past.

 

[Skeptic]

Sadly, I don't think so. You have a point, certainly, but you're forgetting one thing -- since practically all countries in the world are "imperialist" (according to their definition), why pick on Israel specifically to this degree?

I've checked these folks history; in many cases, though not all of course, they are significantly influenced by the modern variation of the "protocols" -- only this time it isn't "the Jewish bankers control the world" but "the zionist bankers control the USA".

Here is some evidence. The "international solidarity movement" spokesman refused to admit this Italian terrorism supporter was killed by, er, terrorists. It was all an evil Israeli plot. "That is their method", he said.

So the same folks you try to help kidnap and kill you -- on video -- and guess what? It's the Jews' fault. If this isn't antisemitic conspiracy-theory mongering, what is?

 

[Skeptic]

In the case of the Itamar murder of a family -- including the children -- guess what? The murderers have been apprehended and, naturally, are Palestinian terrorists. This despite the claims by some useful idiots here that they might be somebody -- anybody -- else.

Hey, makes sense. It's not like Palestinians murdered Jewish families before or anything, right?

 

[Virus]

Members of the Communist terror group the PFLP.

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=216963

Premeditated and supported by their families and friends.

Sick, evil and twisted people.

 

[angrysoba]

In the case of the Itamar murder of a family -- including the children -- guess what? The murderers have been apprehended and, naturally, are Palestinian terrorists. This despite the claims by some useful idiots here that they might be somebody -- anybody -- else.

Hey, makes sense. It's not like Palestinians murdered Jewish families before or anything, right?

So the Thai farm workers theory has fizzled then?

 

[Stout]

You lost me. You seem to be saying that nobody who sets up a PR stunt is stupid enough to have it result in bad PR. But surely history is full of stupid PR stunts. So the fact that the activists set up a PR stunt doesn't really support the idea that they probably didn't screw it up somehow.

Yes, it's possible of of the western activists made the comment, fueled by anger in the heat of the moment,under "attack" but given the length the non-psycho activists go to to stress that they're not anti-Semitic, merely fighting colonialism. it's about as out of character as you can get.

However

Given that the whole exercise ended up being one giant cock-up, a massive PR disaster that didn't manage to convince anyone of anything other than activists will be activists, I won't be putting any money on my suggestion.

Our local MM "sailor" is still out ( well, he was as of last fall ) on the lecture/speaking circuit and judging by the promotional material for those talks, he'll only be preaching to the choir.

 

[Skeptic]

So the Thai farm workers theory has fizzled then?

That was Hamas' position. You see, the evil "settler family" had exploited the (nonexistent) "Thai worker", as Jews always do.

Not a big surprise the usual gang jumped on Hamas' sane, moderate theory.

 

[angrysoba]

That was Hamas' position. You see, the evil "settler family" had exploited the (nonexistent) "Thai worker", as Jews always do.

Not a big surprise the usual gang jumped on Hamas' sane, moderate theory.

Well to those of a particular turn-of-mind the idea that the Jews had diddled a poor farmer out of money was believable but of course the special turn-of-mind also allows them to believe it was because the Jews diddled a poor farmer out of money and ALSO that it was a "natural response" to illegal occupation.

It is something I've tried to explain to those of a-certain-turn-of-mind:

So you're saying, "He didn't do it and he was right to do it?"

"Teacher, I couldn't do my homework because my gran died and my dog ate it."

 

[angrysoba]

This guy goes into overdrive on the whole "I bet Israel is to blame for something and I'm sure it must be Israel and I will rant and rage until it is true!"

 

[Stout]

Sadly, I don't think so. You have a point, certainly, but you're forgetting one thing -- since practically all countries in the world are "imperialist" (according to their definition), why pick on Israel specifically to this degree?

I've checked these folks history; in many cases, though not all of course, they are significantly influenced by the modern variation of the "protocols" -- only this time it isn't "the Jewish bankers control the world" but "the zionist bankers control the USA".

I agree, most countries are imperialist and act in their own interests and it does appear that Israel has been singled out for special treatment when we look at the number and type of "actions" and compare them to the the other "actions" organized by the radical left.

What's really driving them in this issue is the amount of foreign aid sent over to Israel, it's like they, the activists feel responsible for the situation and it's being done in "their" name. It's all playing back into that collective guilt idea and their goal is distance themselves from the western financial contributions that they feel allows Israel to exist as it does now.

"Not in out name" is the mantra and any reference to the evil Jews, The Protocols is rapidly shot down, exposed as anti-semitism and overwritten with anti-imperialist rhetoric.

At least in my experience.

 

[WildCat]

Members of the Communist terror group the PFLP.

http://www.jpost.com/NationalNews/Article.aspx?id=216963

Premeditated and supported by their families and friends.

Sick, evil and twisted people.

And let's not forget there's people on this very forum excusing this incident.

 

[Skeptic]

The mother of the slain "activist" declared she will be coming to visit Gaza. Stupidity must be genetic, I suppose... Anyway, I posted an English-language blog since the only other sources right now are the Hebrew-language Israeli papers, at least on a cursory googling.

Note how this blog is -- like most Israel-bashing blogs -- massively conspiratorial in natrue. For example, did you know the "zionists" had "engineered Islamophobia"? (As opposed to, say, people flying into the twin towers or something...) and that Habad's Rabbi declared Jews a "separate species superior to others"? Oh, and apparently evil Israeli rabbis control Obama, or something.

Naturally, these folks say that they are telling us the "evil hidden truth" about Israel. If it's so friggin' hidden, how come just about everything they post comes from Ha'aretz, Jerusalem Post, Yediot Aharonot, and Ma'ariv -- all Israeli papers with English editions (when it doesn't come from a "some guy posted this on youtube, so it must be true" source, that is.)

Oh wait -- that's because while these newspapers report (more or less) the facts about the events, the blog adds the "evil Jews zionists control everything" or "It's all a Jewish zionist lie, a LIE, I tell you!" in their interpretation. That, apparently, is the "truth" that Americans "don't know".

Oh, and P.S.

The blog has this gem: Israeli rabbi preparing to sacrifice 300 goat and sheep. No doubt they salivated that the magazine quoted chose the unfortunate phrase "world Jewery". Damn bloodthirsty, world-spanning Joooz! The source is Forward -- the biggest American Jewish newspaper. Thank God this blog is exposing such evil which is so deeply hidden! Damn, we Jews need to do a better job hiding our evil deeds. Those guys at Forward have no idea what "ZOG security clearance" means.