The Massei/Mignini Conspiracy Theory

[Dan O.]

katy_did, It looks like you have me backed into a corner on that point. While the evidence you provided isn't conclusive, it is pretty strong. I might still be able to wiggle out by claiming that the prosecuting knew that the defense had proof that they were wrong so they presented a hollow case. By not presenting the postal officers evidence for why they believed the clock was fast, they avoid presenting false evidence in court.

It's a shame that Stuart's report doesn't explicitly note that the prosecutions claim was not supported.

 

[RoseMontague]

katy_did, It looks like you have me backed into a corner on that point. While the evidence you provided isn't conclusive, it is pretty strong. I might still be able to wiggle out by claiming that the prosecuting knew that the defense had proof that they were wrong so they presented a hollow case. By not presenting the postal officers evidence for why they believed the clock was fast, they avoid presenting false evidence in court.

It's a shame that Stuart's report doesn't explicitly note that the prosecutions claim was not supported.

The postale pdf is a nice piece of logic. If the clock was fast and not slow as the prosecution claimed the the carabaneiri would have had to call Amanda for directions about 15 minutes after they arrived. They used Amanda's cell phone records to show this as the cell phone times are not in dispute. LOL.

There is a really fine analysis of the defense presentation from the standpoint of a poster that believes in guilt. I thought thoughtful at PMF did a pretty good job on this one in the links to follow.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=32190#p32190

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?p=32368#p32368

For some reason his posts got little applause at PMF.

 

[Draca]

The prosecution didn't present documented evidence of the time difference, they called a police officer to the stand who testified that the CCTV was 10-15 minutes fast. Their claim was based on his evidence. Here's a post from Stewart Home on PMF, who was in Court on the day the police witness (Mauro Barbadori) testified:


Two days after this, Bongiorno showed the presentation with footage of the postal police/Carabinieri which refuted the police claims, and proved the CCTV was ten minutes slow. The prosecution in their closing argument dropped the 10-15 minute fast theory, and started saying that maybe the CCTV timestamp was only 5 minutes fast, but at any rate Sollecito still called 112 after the police arrived (to his credit, Massei didn't buy it).

In my view, the police used Battistelli's claim that he arrived at 12:35 as their starting point: they used his statement to verify the CCTV time, not the other way round. Hence if CCTV footage showed him arriving at 12:47 but he said he arrived at 12:35, then clearly the timestamp must have been 10-15 minutes fast. The first time the 'ten minute fast' claim about the CCTV was made was nearly a year after the murder, in August or September of '08 - I think it unlikely they had come up with this theory only a week and a half after the murder, especially since the early claims about the 112 call used police statements as evidence, not CCTV footage.

If the defence hadn't come up with rock solid evidence proving the CCTV was slow, the police would have quite likely convinced the Court that the CCTV was fast and that Sollecito had called 112 after the police arrived. It is a bit much to pass this one off as yet another unfortunate mistake, in my opinion.

Interesting post Katy_did. Yet another situation that makes one guess if there is something incompetent or underhanded going on.

 

[Draca]

Time of image was - 20:41 / 8:41 p.m.

Mar 13, 2009 - Court date - News on Nov 1st image

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...V-footage-night-British-student-murdered.html

timed at 20.41 on the night Meredith was last seen alive and minutes after she had left a friend's house to return home.

Police inspector Mauro Barbadori told the court that the footage had been recovered in the hope that it would provide key information. He said: 'From the time on the film and the fact it is a female figure - the belief is that it is Meredith but it is very poor quality and we cannot say for definite. 'Hypothetically speaking it is very possible that the figure seen is Meredith returning home after spending the evening at a friend's house.'

http://www.unionesarda.it/Articoli/Articolo/110492

The assistant then described the pictures taken at 20:41 of the first of November, with a person "who allegedly could correspond to Meredith." Barbadori explained that the cameras in the area of the house of the crime and the route followed by Kercher up the house of English friends dined before she was killed

--------------

Police Arrival talk

Mar 13, 2009 - Court date


http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/knoxed-down.html

A little step back. Today the video was projected of the arrival of the postal police car at 12:36. But the clock was then minutes ahead so it was 12:26. For the police.

Sollecito's defence doesn't think the same. They think the clock was behind of 10 minutes, so it was 12:46.


Oct 18, 2009 - Court date

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/10/defensive-strategy-for-knox-and.html

In the request day, as we have seen, Sollecito's defense intended to prove that the call to 112 was made before the arrival of Postal Police.
The strategic reason for which the argument was presented in that hearing can only be that they wanted to leave it as last, since the jury is naturally more influenced by recent facts rather than old ones.

13:22 The carabinieri found the house as we can see from their car stopped in front of the gate. It can't really be 13:22 since they asked for directions at 13:29. That means that the camera clock must be be at least 8 minutes behind. By consequence the real time in the previous picture must be 12:56, when Raffaele's call to 112 was just finished.

--------

The Mar 13, 2009 court date seems to give conflicting information. Police officer Mauro Barbadori shows the CCTV image stamped 20:41 on Nov 1st and says it is possibly Meredith Kercher arriving home.

On the same day, the prosecution also discusses the police arrival time and say the CCTV is 10 minutes FAST. If that was true the Nov 1st image would actually be at 20:31. Why does Maruo Barbadori say it could possibly be MK then? The English Friends testified on Feb 14, 2009, so it would be known that the earliest departure time was Sophie Purton's at 8:45 p.m. It would not be possible for MK to be arriving home at 8:31 p.m since she hadn't even left for home yet. For that matter, the same can be said of 8:41 p.m.

Frank mentions on Mar 13th that the Sollecito's defense thinks the camera is actually 10 minutes slow. However, the defense's big presentation on the issue isn't made until the Oct 18th court date.

The actual stamp of 8:41 p.m. from the Mar 13, 2009 court date is very close to the 8:43 p.m. from Nov 12, 2007 press leaks that say - Foxy Knoxy caught by CCTV arriving home. - http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/...t-murder-flat-on-night-meredith-was-killed.do

On Mar 13, 2009 in court the clock being slow is not established although mentioned. The police are still trying to say it is fast.

In the end, the 8:41 p.m. time stamp would actually be an image made at 8:51 - 8:53 p.m., using the defense estimate of the clock being 10 -12 minutes slow.

8:51 - 8:53 p.m would be the perfect direction and time for Meredith Kercher to be arriving home. If that image is Meredith Kercher she was home before the 8:56 p.m. call to her mother.

 

[RoseMontague]

Mar 13, 2009 - Court date - News on Nov 1st image

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/wor...V-footage-night-British-student-murdered.html

timed at 20.41 on the night Meredith was last seen alive and minutes after she had left a friend's house to return home.

Police inspector Mauro Barbadori told the court that the footage had been recovered in the hope that it would provide key information. He said: 'From the time on the film and the fact it is a female figure - the belief is that it is Meredith but it is very poor quality and we cannot say for definite. 'Hypothetically speaking it is very possible that the figure seen is Meredith returning home after spending the evening at a friend's house.'

http://www.unionesarda.it/Articoli/Articolo/110492

The assistant then described the pictures taken at 20:41 of the first of November, with a person "who allegedly could correspond to Meredith." Barbadori explained that the cameras in the area of the house of the crime and the route followed by Kercher up the house of English friends dined before she was killed

--------------

Police Arrival talk

Mar 13, 2009 - Court date


http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/knoxed-down.html

A little step back. Today the video was projected of the arrival of the postal police car at 12:36. But the clock was then minutes ahead so it was 12:26. For the police.

Sollecito's defence doesn't think the same. They think the clock was behind of 10 minutes, so it was 12:46.


Oct 18, 2009 - Court date

http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/10/defensive-strategy-for-knox-and.html

In the request day, as we have seen, Sollecito's defense intended to prove that the call to 112 was made before the arrival of Postal Police.
The strategic reason for which the argument was presented in that hearing can only be that they wanted to leave it as last, since the jury is naturally more influenced by recent facts rather than old ones.

13:22 The carabinieri found the house as we can see from their car stopped in front of the gate. It can't really be 13:22 since they asked for directions at 13:29. That means that the camera clock must be be at least 8 minutes behind. By consequence the real time in the previous picture must be 12:56, when Raffaele's call to 112 was just finished.

--------

The Mar 13, 2009 court date seems to give conflicting information. Police officer Mauro Barbadori shows the CCTV image stamped 20:41 on Nov 1st and says it is possibly Meredith Kercher arriving home.

On the same day, the prosecution also discusses the police arrival time and say the CCTV is 10 minutes FAST. If that was true the Nov 1st image would actually be at 20:31. Why does Maruo Barbadori say it could possibly be MK then? The English Friends testified on Feb 14, 2009, so it would be known that the earliest departure time was Sophie Purton's at 8:45 p.m. It would not be possible for MK to be arriving home at 8:31 p.m since she hadn't even left for home yet. For that matter, the same can be said of 8:41 p.m.

Frank mentions on Mar 13th that the Sollecito's defense thinks the camera is actually 10 minutes slow. However, the defense's big presentation on the issue isn't made until the Oct 18th court date.

The actual stamp of 8:41 p.m. from the Mar 13, 2009 court date is very close to the 8:43 p.m. from Nov 12, 2007 press leaks that say - Foxy Knoxy caught by CCTV arriving home. - http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/...t-murder-flat-on-night-meredith-was-killed.do

On Mar 13, 2009 in court the clock being slow is not established although mentioned. The police are still trying to say it is fast.

In the end, the 8:41 p.m. time stamp would actually be an image made at 8:51 - 8:53 p.m., using the defense estimate of the clock being 10 -12 minutes slow.

8:51 - 8:53 p.m would be the perfect direction and time for Meredith Kercher to be arriving home. If that image is Meredith Kercher she was home before the 8:56 p.m. call to her mother.

Thank you and nicely done. I think she got there, called home, saw or heard something and closed the call and was assaulted almost immediately. She didn't get her laundry out, change her clothes, or call her parents again.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Thank you and nicely done. I think she got there, called home, saw or heard something and closed the call and was assaulted almost immediately. She didn't get her laundry out, change her clothes, or call her parents again.

You'd think that the fact she was still wearing her jacket would have been a big red flag to the police that their TOD was out. For what valid reason would she still have been wearing her jacket inside two and a half hours after getting home? Everything points towards her dying very shortly after 9pm.

 

[platonov]

Conspiracy expanded - RG & defence teams involved.

Thank you and nicely done. I think she got there, called home, saw or heard something and closed the call and was assaulted almost immediately. She didn't get her laundry out, change her clothes, or call her parents again.

As has been explained several times...

It is really difficult to conceive a ToD of 9.05 or 9.15, as per KL & LJ, and now you.

AND correlate this with RG hanging around till 10.13 *

AND yet failing to wipe his prints

OR flush

OR check the other rooms for cash/ jewelry

OR why he fled straight from the bedroom with blood on his shoes.

OR where the phones were between 10.13 & 12.15

AND Leaving aside all the other evidence - the staged break-in for example.

* Even if we allow that those pings were made as the phone left the cottage which is not what the evidence shows.

NOR indeed why the defence originally went for a 9.30 - 10.30 ToD.

Unless both RG (by hanging around for an hour or 3, to cast suspicion on AK and RS, then leaving in a hurrrry) and the defence are in on the conspiracy

 

[RoseMontague]

As has been explained several times...

It is really difficult to conceive a ToD of 9.05 or 9.15, as per KL & LJ, and now you.

AND correlate this with RG hanging around till 10.13 *

AND yet failing to wipe his prints

OR flush

OR check the other rooms for cash/ jewelry

OR why he fled straight from the bedroom with blood on his shoes.

OR where the phones were between 10.13 & 12.15

AND Leaving aside all the other evidence - the staged break-in for example.

* Even if we allow that those pings were made as the phone left the cottage which is not what the evidence shows.

NOR indeed why the defence originally went for a 9.30 - 10.30 ToD.

Unless both RG (by hanging around for an hour or 3, to cast suspicion on AK and RS, then leaving in a hurrry) and the defence are in on the conspiracy

*The evidence shows the phone could have been at Merediths's and also could have been on the way to where they were eventually dumped.

 

[platonov]

Conspiracy involves time travel in both directions

<snip>



Unless both RG (by hanging around for an hour or 3, to cast suspicion on AK and RS, then leaving in a hurrry) and the defence are in on the conspiracy

Note - Lest certain posters be upset...

This is not retrocausality - this is time travel into the future and back again to frame AK & RS.

ETA Or maybe it is , I'll leave it to the CT's to make sense of.

 

[RoseMontague]

Note - Lest certain posters be upset...

This is not retrocausality - this is time travel into the future and back again to frame AK & RS.

ETA Or maybe it is , I'll leave it to the CT's to make sense of.

Originally Posted by platonov View Post

<snip>



Unless both RG (by hanging around for an hour or 3, to cast suspicion on AK and RS, then leaving in a hurrry) and the defence are in on the conspiracy

I prefer your quoting of yourself in this order for some reason.

 

[platonov]

*The evidence shows the phone could have been at Merediths's and also could have been on the way to where they were eventually dumped.

I like (or prefer...for some reason) when your response to one point among many hinges on the word could.

It "could" have been committed by Killer Clowns From Outer Space, or a lovelorn Sasquatch as was pointed out a few posts back.

 

[RoseMontague]

I like (or prefer...for some reason) when your response to one point among many hinges on the word could.

It is not hard to understand as Raffaele's appeal points out. They present the evidence that the phone was more likely not in Meredith's flat at that time. It is just like Massei to take a could and turn it into something that is proven. It is simply possible but not probable that the phone was still at Meredith's place.

 

[platonov]

Another scene from "v_p & LG investigate"

You'd think that the fact she was still wearing her jacket would have been a big red flag to the police that their TOD was out. For what valid reason would she still have been wearing her jacket inside two and a half hours after getting home? Everything points towards her dying very shortly after 9pm.

Another scene from "v_p & LG LW investigate" ....



Forensics Guys -- blah blah blah

TV Cop -- She was wearing her jacket ... Don't you see what this means.

Forensics Guys -- But Sir

TV Cop -- (whispered aside to young partner) Pay no heed to these egg heads with their book learnin'. It was the black guy.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Another scene from "v_p & LG investigate" ....



Forensics Guys -- blah blah blah

TV Cop -- She was wearing her jacket ... Don't you see what this means.

Forensics Guys -- But Sir

TV Cop -- (whispered aside to young partner) Pay no heed to these egg heads with their book learnin'. It was the black guy.

So you have forensics evidence that she died at 11:30pm? Please feel free to present it since what I have read says that they didn't get a good TOD reading because the temperature reading wasn't done right, so they based it on other evidence such as when the alledged scream, but if you have something else that shows she died at closer to 11:30 present it.

 

[platonov]

So you have forensics evidence that she died at 11:30pm? Please feel free to present it since what I have read says that they didn't get a good TOD reading because the temperature reading wasn't done right, so they based it on other evidence such as when the alledged scream, but if you have something else that shows she died at closer to 11:30 present it.

Who needs forensics (or other evidence) - she was wearing her 'jacket'

 

[Draca]

Meredith's adidas jacket pulled out of Laundry Hamper

Another scene from "v_p & LG LW investigate" ....



Forensics Guys -- blah blah blah

TV Cop -- She was wearing her jacket ... Don't you see what this means.

Forensics Guys -- But Sir

TV Cop -- (whispered aside to young partner) Pay no heed to these egg heads with their book learnin'. It was the black guy.

Forensic Guys -- It looks like this is the jacket MK wore that night and it was forcefully removed as both sleeves are inside out and it was found on the floor near her head. There is also a lot of blood by the neck cuff where she was stabbed. I know, let's store it in the Laundry Hamper for six weeks until Dec 18th.

 

[RoseMontague]

So you have forensics evidence that she died at 11:30pm? Please feel free to present it since what I have read says that they didn't get a good TOD reading because the temperature reading wasn't done right, so they based it on other evidence such as when the alledged scream, but if you have something else that shows she died at closer to 11:30 present it.

I'm betting that he just comes back with a snarky comment.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

As has been explained several times...

It is really difficult to conceive a ToD of 9.05 or 9.15, as per KL & LJ, and now you.

AND correlate this with RG hanging around till 10.13 *

AND yet failing to wipe his prints

OR flush

OR check the other rooms for cash/ jewelry

OR why he fled straight from the bedroom with blood on his shoes.

Ah, I remember the good old days when Alt+F4 was arguing until she was blue in the face the exact opposite. According to her there simply wasn't enough time between 9:05 or so when Meredith probably got home, and 10:00pm or so by which time Rudy had probably left the building, for him to rape and murder her, search her room for stuff, wash himself off partially in the shower and do everything else he had to have done.

According to her, the pro-innocence case was obviously false because there wasn't enough time for Rudy to do everything.

Now we've got Platonov arguing that the pro-innocence case is obviously false because there's too much time there and Rudy hasn't done enough to fill it up.

Now I'm not arguing that Platonov is responsible for whatever Alt+F4 makes up, or vice versa. They are both their own people and responsible only for the silliness of the ideas they themselves articulate.

However I don't think you could ask for a better demonstration of confirmation bias in action than the fact that each of them have separately convinced themselves that their time estimate must be correct, just on the basis that it suits their prejudices to believe it.

 

[platonov]

Mob bookies on manhunt

I'm betting that he just comes back with a snarky comment.

You have to place your bets before the window closes - otherwise retrocausality

 

[RoseMontague]

I'm betting that he just comes back with a snarky comment.

And I am betting a snarky response to this comment will be forthcoming soon thereafter.